RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,931
Posts: 5,478,826
Members: 25,054
Currently online: 458
Newest member: DRayTrekkie

TrekToday headlines

Trek Shirt And Hoodie
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

A Klingon Christmas Carol’s Last Season
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

Attack Wing Wave 10 Expansion Pack
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

New Star Trek Funko Pop! Vinyl Figures
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

QMx Mini Phaser Ornament
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Stewart as Neo-Nazi Skinhead
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Trek Actors In War Of The Worlds Fundraiser
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Star Trek: The Next Generation Gag Reel Tease
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24

Shatner In Haven
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 16 2014, 12:14 AM   #31
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What if it Went Longer

Keith1701 wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Well, a season and a half of animated episodes, which didn't even equal the number of a single season order of a primetime series.
I agree, if the TOS had gone into fourth season, the franchise might have ended then and there instead of having TNG, then into DS9, onto to Voyager, and movies, plus Enterprise.
First off, how does that agree with what Maurice said about TAS? It seems completely unrelated.

Second, I don't understand the cause and effect you're positing. What made Star Trek popular enough to get all those sequels and spinoffs was its spectacular success in syndicated reruns. If it had had a fourth season, it would've had more reruns; indeed, the season would've needed only 21 episodes to hit the "magic 100" number that was considered the optimal minimum for effective syndication (though TOS's success with only 79 episodes somewhat gives the lie to that). So I don't see how having four seasons' worth of reruns instead of three would have been in any way detrimental to ST's popularity. Even if the fourth season had been horrible, fans would still have liked the first two just as much. Sure, they would've gotten to see the good episodes only about 3/4 as often, but given how ubiquitous ST was in syndication, that wouldn't have been that great a reduction in their availability.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 12:23 AM   #32
dougiezerts
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Re: What if it Went Longer

Zaku wrote: View Post
Green Shirt wrote: View Post
Zaku wrote: View Post

Star Trek fourth season: Ghost Ship Enterprise.
Star Trek fifth season: some guy sitting at a table reading the Captain's Log.
Star Trek sixth season: they fired the guy (too expensive) and sold the table. The log text appears directly on tv screen.
Reminds me of the Saturday Night Live parody. They're shutting down the show and pulling down the set, while the cast is saying their lines. Only Shattner remains onstage vainly trying to boldly go where no man has gone before!
dougiezerts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 01:31 AM   #33
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
View Maurice's Twitter Profile
Re: What if it Went Longer

Christopher wrote: View Post
Keith1701 wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Well, a season and a half of animated episodes, which didn't even equal the number of a single season order of a primetime series.
I agree, if the TOS had gone into fourth season, the franchise might have ended then and there instead of having TNG, then into DS9, onto to Voyager, and movies, plus Enterprise.
First off, how does that agree with what Maurice said about TAS? It seems completely unrelated.
Yeah. Huh?
__________________
* * *
“Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.”
― Winston S. Churchill
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 04:05 AM   #34
E-DUB
Captain
 
Re: What if it Went Longer

I don't know that a longer running original series would have deprived us of spin-offs. Look at "Law and Order". What we might have gotten could have been no TNG, (of course, many of the TNG stories would work as original series eps). We also could have seen DS9 and Voyager only with 23rd century settings. With the L&O model, some of them could even have ran concurrently with the original.
E-DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 04:41 AM   #35
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
View Maurice's Twitter Profile
Re: What if it Went Longer

You mean the TNG/DS9 model, since they ran concurrently for a few years.
__________________
* * *
“Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.”
― Winston S. Churchill
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 04:54 AM   #36
Nebusj
Rear Admiral
 
Nebusj's Avatar
 
View Nebusj's Twitter Profile
Re: What if it Went Longer

Harvey wrote: View Post
Nebusj wrote: View Post
Have we got solid evidence that NBC had penciled in Star Trek to a better timeslot for the third season before moving it to the Death Slot?
Yep. There's an issue of Broadcasting that prints an early schedule for the 1968-69 season, with Star Trek penciled in on Mondays.

(At least, I think it is Broadcasting; it's too late and I'm too tired to check right now).
Ah, thank you. I wasn't aware that contemporary documentary evidence had been found. (No need to bother finding it; I'm fine, for discussions like this, accepting that it did appear in Broadcasting or the equivalent.)
Nebusj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 05:18 AM   #37
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What if it Went Longer

E-DUB wrote: View Post
I don't know that a longer running original series would have deprived us of spin-offs. Look at "Law and Order". What we might have gotten could have been no TNG, (of course, many of the TNG stories would work as original series eps). We also could have seen DS9 and Voyager only with 23rd century settings. With the L&O model, some of them could even have ran concurrently with the original.
I don't see that. I mean, there's an 18-year gap between the end of TOS and the start of TNG. No way would a longer-running TOS have made it anywhere near that long. Heck, TNG itself was the first American science fiction show that ever ran longer than five seasons.

After all, the adventures of the original cast did continue in movies -- but they still created TNG because they were aware that the original cast was getting older (and more expensive) and thus wanted to start over with a fresh cast. So I just don't see why a longer TOS would've prevented TNG or the 24th-century setting from being created.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 06:55 AM   #38
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: What if it Went Longer

Nebusj wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
Nebusj wrote: View Post
Have we got solid evidence that NBC had penciled in Star Trek to a better timeslot for the third season before moving it to the Death Slot?
Yep. There's an issue of Broadcasting that prints an early schedule for the 1968-69 season, with Star Trek penciled in on Mondays.

(At least, I think it is Broadcasting; it's too late and I'm too tired to check right now).
Ah, thank you. I wasn't aware that contemporary documentary evidence had been found. (No need to bother finding it; I'm fine, for discussions like this, accepting that it did appear in Broadcasting or the equivalent.)
No need, maybe, but I am obsessed after all...

From the March 4, 1968 issue of Broadcasting (p.25):


The three figures next to each series represent per minute advertising prices for the fall/winter, spring, and summer.

As you can see, Star Trek was drawing advertising rates not far removed from the Tuesday 10 o'clock news hour on CBS -- not a good sign.

On March 15, 1968, NBC decided to shuffle its forthcoming schedule to better accommodate Rowan and Martin's Laugh In, which had risen to the #21 spot in the Nielsen ratings during the 1967-68 season (and would subsequently take the #1 spot the following season). As a side-effect of that move, Star Trek ended up in the 10:00 spot on Friday nights.
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 08:50 AM   #39
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
View Maurice's Twitter Profile
Re: What if it Went Longer

Those numbers further make the case that the show was not performing well.
__________________
* * *
“Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.”
― Winston S. Churchill
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 02:10 PM   #40
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What if it Went Longer

But, wow, they were going to put ST up against Gunsmoke? That implies they felt it could be a strong performer. Just not as strong as Laugh-In, as it turned out.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 03:17 PM   #41
E-DUB
Captain
 
Re: What if it Went Longer

Allow me to clarify/elaborate on my earlier post. Postulating a six year run for the original series, around the fifth year actor costs would begin to escalate. Network brass would conclude that they could keep the brand going if they launching a spin-off with a new cast. Such a spin-off would undoubtedly be set in the same timeframe because that would make more sense economically as props (phasers, communicators, etc.) could just be moved over. After six years of TOS and five of "Star Trek: Deep Space K8" or "Star Trek: Mariner" that would be ten years (assuming one year of overlap).

Oh, we might eventually see something like a "Next Generation" series but that wouldn't come for a long time given that much more twenty-third century product out there in the syndication market.
E-DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 04:15 PM   #42
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What if it Went Longer

E-DUB wrote: View Post
Allow me to clarify/elaborate on my earlier post. Postulating a six year run for the original series, around the fifth year actor costs would begin to escalate. Network brass would conclude that they could keep the brand going if they launching a spin-off with a new cast. Such a spin-off would undoubtedly be set in the same timeframe because that would make more sense economically as props (phasers, communicators, etc.) could just be moved over. After six years of TOS and five of "Star Trek: Deep Space K8" or "Star Trek: Mariner" that would be ten years (assuming one year of overlap).
It's hard for me to see that happening in the 1970s. As I said, before TNG, science fiction was never popular or profitable enough in the US to last longer than five seasons at the outside. I think that once Paramount got TOS past 100 episodes and felt secure in the show's syndication potential, it would've had to be exceptionally successful and/or critically acclaimed in order for NBC and Paramount to consider it worthwhile to continue the show.

If there had been a spinoff, it might've been something like Assignment: Earth, a present-day, Earth-based series to save costs. You didn't see a lot of deep-space shows in the early '70s -- aside from TAS itself, there was basically just The Starlost and Space: 1999, with most of the space shows coming late in the decade in the wake of Star Wars -- Space Academy/Jason of Star Command, Quark, Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, and Blake's 7 in the UK. The bulk of the genre shows in the first half of the decade were Earthbound things like the bionic shows, Planet of the Apes, Ark II, and UFO in the UK (okay, that was partly set in near space, but still centered on the Earth/Moon system). And Roddenberry's pilots in that era were Earthbound too -- Genesis II, Planet Earth, The Questor Tapes, Spectre. If he'd been asked to do a Trek spinoff, it might well have been a version of Genesis II that was set in the Trek universe's past after the Eugenics Wars/WWIII (which were implicitly the same thing until TNG retconned the time frame of the latter) and showed the beginning of Earth's rebuilding into the utopia it became in Kirk's time.

And once more, it's worth keeping in mind that the animated series was a spinoff/continuation of the original, debuting only four years after the original ended. Moving the show to animation was how NBC chose to revive/continue it while making it less expensive. Let's remember how popular the show was among children in its original run. NBC may have felt they were the prime target audience for ST, and that they'd respond as well to an animated show as a live-action one (although TAS was made with the hope that it would draw adults too). And keep in mind that Filmation was in talks about doing an animated spinoff even while the original series was still in production -- the idea being to focus on a young cadet crew that had Kirk, Spock, and the others as their mentors, and have their adventures run in parallel with the live-action show. Those plans were abandoned when TOS was cancelled. So if TOS had continued, it's highly possible that its first spinoff would've been in animated form.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 09:00 PM   #43
AtoZ
Commander
 
AtoZ's Avatar
 
Re: What if it Went Longer

In my perfect little fantasy world, they would have cut back the number of production episodes to 16 but remained at par with S3 in terms of effort (at its best....Spectre, Enterpise Incident, All Our Yesterdays, etc). They would have given us a return on a few of the older open ended plots, perhaps induced Eddie Paskey to return for background shots (in a variety of different short colors) in a handful of episodes....if only to add that S1/S2 sense of "home". Maybe have Kirk wear his wrap-around a time or two. Often, its the little things that can make a difference.
AtoZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 09:26 PM   #44
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
View Maurice's Twitter Profile
Re: What if it Went Longer

Christopher wrote: View Post
But, wow, they were going to put ST up against Gunsmoke? That implies they felt it could be a strong performer. Just not as strong as Laugh-In, as it turned out.
To follow up on that idea, sometimes shows are put up against strong competition not to win the slot, but when the network thinks they can grab an audience the leading show doesn't serve. Gunsmoke drew an older audience, and perhaps NBC felt Star Trek would bleed younger audiences that would eschew Dodge City. Putting Laugh-In there makes complete sense if that was their plan. Sometimes you also put a weak marginally profitable show up against a strong show when you don't want to risk damaging your own strong shows and the revenue they bring in.
__________________
* * *
“Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.”
― Winston S. Churchill

Last edited by Maurice; July 17 2014 at 07:41 AM.
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 17 2014, 01:34 AM   #45
Nebusj
Rear Admiral
 
Nebusj's Avatar
 
View Nebusj's Twitter Profile
Re: What if it Went Longer

Harvey wrote: View Post
No need, maybe, but I am obsessed after all...

From the March 4, 1968 issue of Broadcasting (p.25):


The three figures next to each series represent per minute advertising prices for the fall/winter, spring, and summer.
Ooh, thank you. That's most interesting.

As you can see, Star Trek was drawing advertising rates not far removed from the Tuesday 10 o'clock news hour on CBS -- not a good sign.
True, although, it is commanding advertising rates that compare well with NBC's Tuesday at 7:30 show, which has to be about what NBC had to figure it could get barring the sudden discovery of a surprise hit. Granted Star Trek probably had a lower profit margin than The Jerry Lewis Show, though. (On the other hand, I suppose it depends how much of the advertising revenue NBC had to pay to Paramount. It was a fixed cost per show, wasn't it, so that with lower advertising rates NBC would lose profit first?)

I wonder how it compares to other weekday 7:30 NBC shows (but please don't go to great trouble finding the data; this is really idle curiosity).
Nebusj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
longer, seasons, short

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:51 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.