RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,692
Posts: 5,430,956
Members: 24,828
Currently online: 518
Newest member: ncc1500


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 15 2014, 12:59 PM   #31
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Data's "death"

Hmm. I always looked at it as being a case that B4 would simply become a new character. He would eventually have Data's knowledge and abilities, but none of his experiences. Back in '02, I could even see B4 later on as a newly-minted ensign in Starfleet requested on the Enterprise by Picard, who would ultimately discover that B4 isn't quite the same as Data.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 02:00 PM   #32
HIjol
Fleet Captain
 
HIjol's Avatar
 
Location: Currently U.A.E (a lot like Tatooine!)
Re: Data's "death"

Lance wrote: View Post
HIjol wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Look who really cares about B4?

When it comes down to it, I'd rather have Data than B4.
And I'd rather have Spock than his cloney-thing created in the Genesis wave.

Yes stealing both bodies is ethically wrong but I don't think that I could stand more TNG Prime Universe with an even stupider Data.
Lance wrote: View Post
The fact that it's "ethically wrong" is very much the point.
...not sure I understand the "ethically wrong" thinking, but I really want to...can either of you please expound?...
I'll certainly try.

Hm, I will first admit that "ethically wrong" is perhaps the wrong words, in terms of Data himself. Data holds no responsibility for his (allegedly) having overtaken B4's matrix, as it is (presumably) simply a 'happy accident' that he re-emerged in B4's body as presented in nearly all of the post-Nemesis Star Trek literature (as well as Star Trek Online).

My point is that the writers of the literature essentially made a call that was "ethically wrong" when they decided that the only possible outcome was for Data to come back to life.

As T'Girl says, Data had no forward knowledge of his death (unlike Spock) when he implanted his engrams into B4's neural net. The idea he had was apparently simply to 'kick start' B4's development, but that he and B4 would then co-exist (with B4 hopefully learning and developing his own personality unique to Data's). That Data co-incidentally died later in the same movie in my eyes doesn't change that, and certainly Data would never have intended to create a situation where his own code completely overwrites B4 and creates a replica Data.

A subplot removed from Nemesis and left on the cutting room floor was Data's disappointment with B4's continuing inability to grow and develop. A number of scenes exploring this were filmed, but dropped. That's why he performs the engram swap: he intends to help B4 along a little bit, but emphatically not to stop him from being whatever it is he turns out to be. This is also why Data gets so ROYALLY PISSED when B4 seems to betray them later in the movie, because in the context of those missing scenes, Data thinks the 'little push' he gave B4 earlier has led to another Lore.

As written (and indeed as filmed) the Data/B4 subplot was much more complex than it was eventually presented as in the final cut. Ultimately that was down to the director of Nemesis, Stuart Baird, who decided that he didn't like those scenes and so he cut nearly all of them out of the picture.

In the end it basically just comes down to my own personal opinion on the matter. I don't think Data would have ever intended for his personality to overwrite B4, and I do tend to hold the post-Nemesis pool of writers accountable for doing something morally dubious (in order to bring back Data) without really exploring the consequences of that. The trouble is really that everybody just goes 'Yay, Data's back!' without ever looking at the wider issue of how he came back, or what it means.
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
HIjol wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Look who really cares about B4?

When it comes down to it, I'd rather have Data than B4.
And I'd rather have Spock than his cloney-thing created in the Genesis wave.

Yes stealing both bodies is ethically wrong but I don't think that I could stand more TNG Prime Universe with an even stupider Data.
Lance wrote: View Post
The fact that it's "ethically wrong" is very much the point.
...not sure I understand the "ethically wrong" thinking, but I really want to...can either of you please expound?...
By ethically wrong, I mean when they resurrected Spock they effectively murdered his clone. Just liked they murdered Trip's clone in ENT.
Same if they 'resurrected' Data in B4's brain and body.

I think with Spock they inferred his clone had no mind of its own even though it walked and punch and experienced pon farr. Since I'm so glad I got Spock back I'm not going to look at that logic too closely.

With Data and B4, the Federation barely accepted Data as a sentient entity, same with LAL so I don't think that there's going to be any legal problems if they pop Datas engrams into B4.
Anyway I don't know how the comics resurrected Data, perhaps they found another unused body using the same method as in NEM. So maybe B4 didn't have to die to get Data back. They can technobabble any solution they want.

I know people are saying the resurrection of Spock and the proposed resurrection of Data 'cheapens' the impact of their deaths. I find I don't care. I'm glad they're back. They're two of Star Trek best characters.

Get rid of Paris or Chapel or Riker. I'm not going to complain if youdon't resurrect them.
...thank you!!!!...this is what I needed to understand...
__________________
"If man is to survive, he will delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear" Gene Roddenberry
HIjol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 02:42 PM   #33
Shat Happens
Captain
 
Shat Happens's Avatar
 
Re: Data's "death"

Every time Data plugged a fiber optic cable to his head to run a diagnostic, interface with the Borg or download a .dat file to B4 it was reinforced he was a machine.

He spent 7 seasons repeating like an automaton he wanted to develop emotions. Well, he didn't develop any: eventually a chip was installed and boing! emotions.

And, plausibly, he can be restored in B4's hardware. That plausibility is a point.
Shat Happens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 03:52 PM   #34
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: At the After Party Still...
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Data's "death"

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
Every time Data plugged a fiber optic cable to his head to run a diagnostic, interface with the Borg or download a .dat file to B4 it was reinforced he was a machine.

He spent 7 seasons repeating like an automaton he wanted to develop emotions. Well, he didn't develop any: eventually a chip was installed and boing! emotions.

And, plausibly, he can be restored in B4's hardware. That plausibility is a point.
Sometimes Data acted like a machine such as the episode where he had a girlfriend.
Otherwise Data learnt things, had friends, saved innocents, made a child. Just forget the emotion chip idiocy.
CommishSleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 04:01 PM   #35
Lance
Commodore
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: Data's "death"

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
It bothers me how most people's complaint about Data's death is that he, supposedly, has a convenient Data 2.0 body waiting to be reactivated.

First of all, the movie played off Data's death so depressing, and knowing it will truly be the last TNG movie, for all intents and purposes, Data is dead.

The whole plot point about B4 conveniently becoming Data is not valid, since B4 is primitive compared to Data technological wise.

It's like trying to run Windows 8 on a Pentium 2. Even if it works, it's going to be dreadful to use.

So no, B4 is not a convenient cop-out for Data to come back, unless StarFleet cybernetics comes up with some radical tech to upgrade B4.

For all intents and purposes, Data is dead. Fuck you Paramount!

Do I believe Data was alive? Within the context of the show? yes he was. Even if he technically wasn't, the loss is still the same to all those who cared about him.

In Data's own words:

"As I experience certain sensory input patterns my mental pathways become accustomed to them. The inputs eventually are anticipated and even missed when absent."

My problem with Data's death was never that B4 was a copout 'resurrection vehicle'. It was that B4's entire existence seemed to be a hamhanded attempt to force a sudden, entirely artificial 'passing of the torch' just in order to placate the fans who would be pissed about the decision to kill off Data. It never really occurred to me that B4 could literally become Data, but it did seem clear that he owed his entire existence to the idea that the only way the could get away with killing Data was if they also provided an instant 'replacement' for him. That, to me, was incredibly cheapening to Data's entire character arc (certainly also his death, but not just that).
Yes I must agree, even though I personally hate the idea of Data re-emerging in B4's body and would have liked to have seen B4 develop as his own individual, I too always had the misgiving that he was basically just there as a carrot to the studio, in case Nemesis hadn't really ended TNG movies after all and they wanted to recall Spiner back for another sequel. It's a cynical viewpoint to take, but sadly I think its a very accurate one.

I suppose on the plus side though if that had happened that way, then Spiner would at least have had the added benefit of being able to play a different character again (his boredom with playing Data was by this point obvious for all to see).
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 05:23 PM   #36
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: Data's "death"

It's a complicated question. Data was ruled a lifeform. Well, tomatoes were ruled vegetables by the U.S. Supreme Court for marketing reasons, but that doesn't change what they are. Ruling Data a lifeform provided him all the protections of a sentient being. That's fine. Even deserved. But as even he would admit, he was still an android.

If Data is a lifeform, so are Lor and B4. That would make trying to modify or improve them genetic engineering. Hell, even giving Data his emotion chip would be genetic engineering. The Federation frowns on that, yet they "played" with the software of these characters all the time. Data even tried to improve the "inferior" B4.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 06:20 PM   #37
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Data's "death"

Franklin wrote: View Post
If Data is a lifeform, so are Lor and B4.
That Data is a (sapiant) lifeform doesn't automatically mean B4 is one as well.

The EMH doctor is sapiant, but that doesn't mean all holograms are.

T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 06:32 PM   #38
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: Data's "death"

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
If Data is a lifeform, so are Lor and B4.
That Data is a (sapiant) lifeform doesn't automatically mean B4 is one as well.

The EMH doctor is sapiant, but that doesn't mean all holograms are.

But they are the same beings of just differing abilities. "Flaws" in one doesn't make him any less a being than one that is "better wired." That's the problem you get into. B4 is not a lifeform because he's not as "advanced" or as "smart" as Data? Sounds almost like Eugenics to me. If one is, all three are. Therefore, messing around with any of their elements, or creating a threshold by which one is a lifeform and the other isn't smacks of genetic engineering.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 08:01 PM   #39
Ithekro
Captain
 
Ithekro's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of California
Re: Data's "death"

I got the feeling that B4 was not advanced enough to be sapient. That was the line that needed to be crossed in deturmaine if Data was a lifeform or just a walking computer. Was the computer of the Enterprise a lifeform? It is just about as advanced as B4. The rights given to Data and Lal were because there were sapient. A dog is also not sapient, though a lifeform, but the computer of the Enterprise is generally considered to be much smarter than a dog, yet it is not a lifeform.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 09:01 PM   #40
Shat Happens
Captain
 
Shat Happens's Avatar
 
Re: Data's "death"

Ithekro wrote: View Post
I got the feeling that B4 was not advanced enough to be sapient. That was the line that needed to be crossed in deturmaine if Data was a lifeform or just a walking computer. Was the computer of the Enterprise a lifeform? It is just about as advanced as B4. The rights given to Data and Lal were because there were sapient. A dog is also not sapient, though a lifeform, but the computer of the Enterprise is generally considered to be much smarter than a dog, yet it is not a lifeform.
Dont talk shit about dogs. My dog is smarter than Data. He learned several new tricks in 7 years. Data didn't learn shit.
Shat Happens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 09:27 PM   #41
AgentCoop
Fleet Captain
 
AgentCoop's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' in the Black Lodge since June 10th, 1991
View AgentCoop's Twitter Profile
Re: Data's "death"

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
Every time Data plugged a fiber optic cable to his head to run a diagnostic, interface with the Borg or download a .dat file to B4 it was reinforced he was a machine.

He spent 7 seasons repeating like an automaton he wanted to develop emotions. Well, he didn't develop any: eventually a chip was installed and boing! emotions.

And, plausibly, he can be restored in B4's hardware. That plausibility is a point.
So does the fact that they were able to simply plug Spock's mind into a new body mean that Spock is a machine?

To my mind, Data is a sentient being. That makes it irrelevant to me whether his body is made up of living tissue or wires and circuits. Therefore, Data wasn't "destroyed". Data died.
AgentCoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 09:47 PM   #42
Ithekro
Captain
 
Ithekro's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of California
Re: Data's "death"

I was under the impression, in Star Trek III, that is was Spock's body, with his soul removed. That the placement of his soul into his own body did not invalidate his body as it was on Genesis. He was still the same person, and quite possibly has the memories of being on Genesis. At that point it gets more metaphysical than anything else.

What is a body without its soul? To a Vulcan?
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 10:20 PM   #43
Shat Happens
Captain
 
Shat Happens's Avatar
 
Re: Data's "death"

Ithekro wrote: View Post
I was under the impression, in Star Trek III, that is was Spock's body, with his soul removed. That the placement of his soul into his own body did not invalidate his body as it was on Genesis. He was still the same person, and quite possibly has the memories of being on Genesis.
That. In the androids's case, Data's data supposedly would overwrite B4's data.

Unification wrote:
Data: Interesting. I had not considerate that, and captain Picard has been my role model in my quest to be more human.

Spock: More human?

Data: Yes, Ambassador.

Spock: Fascinating. You have an efficient intellect, superior physical skills, no emotional impediments. There are Vulcans who aspire all their lives to achieve what you've been given by design.
There. Data was designed. Spock himself said so.
Shat Happens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15 2014, 10:32 PM   #44
AgentCoop
Fleet Captain
 
AgentCoop's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' in the Black Lodge since June 10th, 1991
View AgentCoop's Twitter Profile
Re: Data's "death"

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
Ithekro wrote: View Post
I was under the impression, in Star Trek III, that is was Spock's body, with his soul removed. That the placement of his soul into his own body did not invalidate his body as it was on Genesis. He was still the same person, and quite possibly has the memories of being on Genesis.
That. In the androids's case, Data's data supposedly would overwrite B4's data.

Unification wrote:
Data: Interesting. I had not considerate that, and captain Picard has been my role model in my quest to be more human.

Spock: More human?

Data: Yes, Ambassador.

Spock: Fascinating. You have an efficient intellect, superior physical skills, no emotional impediments. There are Vulcans who aspire all their lives to achieve what you've been given by design.
There. Data was designed. Spock himself said so.
I don't see how that proves anything.
AgentCoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16 2014, 08:04 AM   #45
Aragorn
Admiral
 
Aragorn's Avatar
 
Re: Data's "death"

urbandefault wrote: View Post
It's complicated.

Data transferred his memory banks to B4, basically a blank slate. It could be argued that Data's essence, or soul, was transferred. If that essence later emerged in B4, then only Data's body died.

We saw the beginnings of that emergence in NEM.
Data is dead, but a new android will have his memories. Even if he thinks he's Data, that Data everyone knew before is dead.

That's my complaint about cloning movies acting like it's immortality. There may be another you running around, but you yourself are still dead.
Aragorn is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:57 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.