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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 13 2014, 05:24 AM   #16
HIjol
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Re: Data's "death"

dub wrote: View Post
I cared about Data in a completely different way than I care about computers. So to me he died.
100% agree with caring for Data differently...but did he really die?...between giving his "essence" to B-4 and his head existing from "Time's Arrow", I am a bit doubtful and confused...
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Old July 13 2014, 05:55 AM   #17
bbjeg
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Re: Data's "death"

^Only one head existed at the end of Times Arrow. There were two up to the moment Data was sent back in time. When the away team returned to their timeline, Data's head was left in the past and reconnected later (the found head).
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Old July 13 2014, 06:50 AM   #18
Ithekro
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Re: Data's "death"

My assumption on the later stories having B4 become Data was not malice, but accident. B4's personality was primitive compared to Data or Lore, so I would assume that Data's transfer had unintended side effects, as he had problems when he built Lal, and B4 was primitive compared to her.
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Old July 13 2014, 07:23 AM   #19
Commishsleer
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Re: Data's "death"

Look who really cares about B4?

When it comes down to it, I'd rather have Data than B4.
And I'd rather have Spock than his cloney-thing created in the Genesis wave.

Yes stealing both bodies is ethically wrong but I don't think that I could stand more TNG Prime Universe with an even stupider Data.
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Old July 13 2014, 07:41 AM   #20
Lance
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Re: Data's "death"

The fact that it's "ethically wrong" is very much the point.
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Old July 13 2014, 03:41 PM   #21
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Re: Data's "death"

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
He knew he only had one of those transporter thingymygigs. And ...
But all those things were a day or more after Data copied his memories into B4. At the time he made the download he would have had no anticipation of his own death aboard the Simitar.

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Old July 13 2014, 05:26 PM   #22
HIjol
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Re: Data's "death"

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Look who really cares about B4?

When it comes down to it, I'd rather have Data than B4.
And I'd rather have Spock than his cloney-thing created in the Genesis wave.

Yes stealing both bodies is ethically wrong but I don't think that I could stand more TNG Prime Universe with an even stupider Data.
Lance wrote: View Post
The fact that it's "ethically wrong" is very much the point.
...not sure I understand the "ethically wrong" thinking, but I really want to...can either of you please expound?...
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Old July 13 2014, 07:12 PM   #23
-Brett-
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Re: Data's "death"

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Yes stealing both bodies is ethically wrong but I don't think that I could stand more TNG Prime Universe with an even stupider Data.
In that case, good news everyone! Nemesis tanked pretty badly and the odds of more TNG prime universe ever existing are slim to none!
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Old July 13 2014, 07:19 PM   #24
bbjeg
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Re: Data's "death"

^Didn't they say that about Kirk once?
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Old July 13 2014, 07:45 PM   #25
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Re: Data's "death"

-Brett- wrote: View Post
In that case, good news everyone! Nemesis tanked pretty badly and the odds of more TNG prime universe ever existing are slim to none!
Nah, just one more Abrams-verse movie to go (explosions-people aimlessly running around-girls in their underwear) and then we're back to the prime universe.

Solid.

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Old July 14 2014, 05:28 AM   #26
Lance
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Re: Data's "death"

HIjol wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Look who really cares about B4?

When it comes down to it, I'd rather have Data than B4.
And I'd rather have Spock than his cloney-thing created in the Genesis wave.

Yes stealing both bodies is ethically wrong but I don't think that I could stand more TNG Prime Universe with an even stupider Data.
Lance wrote: View Post
The fact that it's "ethically wrong" is very much the point.
...not sure I understand the "ethically wrong" thinking, but I really want to...can either of you please expound?...
I'll certainly try.

Hm, I will first admit that "ethically wrong" is perhaps the wrong words, in terms of Data himself. Data holds no responsibility for his (allegedly) having overtaken B4's matrix, as it is (presumably) simply a 'happy accident' that he re-emerged in B4's body as presented in nearly all of the post-Nemesis Star Trek literature (as well as Star Trek Online).

My point is that the writers of the literature essentially made a call that was "ethically wrong" when they decided that the only possible outcome was for Data to come back to life.

As T'Girl says, Data had no forward knowledge of his death (unlike Spock) when he implanted his engrams into B4's neural net. The idea he had was apparently simply to 'kick start' B4's development, but that he and B4 would then co-exist (with B4 hopefully learning and developing his own personality unique to Data's). That Data co-incidentally died later in the same movie in my eyes doesn't change that, and certainly Data would never have intended to create a situation where his own code completely overwrites B4 and creates a replica Data.

A subplot removed from Nemesis and left on the cutting room floor was Data's disappointment with B4's continuing inability to grow and develop. A number of scenes exploring this were filmed, but dropped. That's why he performs the engram swap: he intends to help B4 along a little bit, but emphatically not to stop him from being whatever it is he turns out to be. This is also why Data gets so ROYALLY PISSED when B4 seems to betray them later in the movie, because in the context of those missing scenes, Data thinks the 'little push' he gave B4 earlier has led to another Lore.

As written (and indeed as filmed) the Data/B4 subplot was much more complex than it was eventually presented as in the final cut. Ultimately that was down to the director of Nemesis, Stuart Baird, who decided that he didn't like those scenes and so he cut nearly all of them out of the picture.

In the end it basically just comes down to my own personal opinion on the matter. I don't think Data would have ever intended for his personality to overwrite B4, and I do tend to hold the post-Nemesis pool of writers accountable for doing something morally dubious (in order to bring back Data) without really exploring the consequences of that. The trouble is really that everybody just goes 'Yay, Data's back!' without ever looking at the wider issue of how he came back, or what it means.
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Old July 15 2014, 03:11 AM   #27
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Re: Data's "death"

It bothers me how most people's complaint about Data's death is that he, supposedly, has a convenient Data 2.0 body waiting to be reactivated.

First of all, the movie played off Data's death so depressing, and knowing it will truly be the last TNG movie, for all intents and purposes, Data is dead.

The whole plot point about B4 conveniently becoming Data is not valid, since B4 is primitive compared to Data technological wise.

It's like trying to run Windows 8 on a Pentium 2. Even if it works, it's going to be dreadful to use.

So no, B4 is not a convenient cop-out for Data to come back, unless StarFleet cybernetics comes up with some radical tech to upgrade B4.

For all intents and purposes, Data is dead. Fuck you Paramount!

Do I believe Data was alive? Within the context of the show? yes he was. Even if he technically wasn't, the loss is still the same to all those who cared about him.

In Data's own words:

"As I experience certain sensory input patterns my mental pathways become accustomed to them. The inputs eventually are anticipated and even missed when absent."

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Old July 15 2014, 11:31 AM   #28
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Re: Data's "death"

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
It bothers me how most people's complaint about Data's death is that he, supposedly, has a convenient Data 2.0 body waiting to be reactivated.

First of all, the movie played off Data's death so depressing, and knowing it will truly be the last TNG movie, for all intents and purposes, Data is dead.

The whole plot point about B4 conveniently becoming Data is not valid, since B4 is primitive compared to Data technological wise.

It's like trying to run Windows 8 on a Pentium 2. Even if it works, it's going to be dreadful to use.

So no, B4 is not a convenient cop-out for Data to come back, unless StarFleet cybernetics comes up with some radical tech to upgrade B4.

For all intents and purposes, Data is dead. Fuck you Paramount!

Do I believe Data was alive? Within the context of the show? yes he was. Even if he technically wasn't, the loss is still the same to all those who cared about him.

In Data's own words:

"As I experience certain sensory input patterns my mental pathways become accustomed to them. The inputs eventually are anticipated and even missed when absent."

My problem with Data's death was never that B4 was a copout 'resurrection vehicle'. It was that B4's entire existence seemed to be a hamhanded attempt to force a sudden, entirely artificial 'passing of the torch' just in order to placate the fans who would be pissed about the decision to kill off Data. It never really occurred to me that B4 could literally become Data, but it did seem clear that he owed his entire existence to the idea that the only way the could get away with killing Data was if they also provided an instant 'replacement' for him. That, to me, was incredibly cheapening to Data's entire character arc (certainly also his death, but not just that).
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Old July 15 2014, 12:48 PM   #29
Commishsleer
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Re: Data's "death"

HIjol wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Look who really cares about B4?

When it comes down to it, I'd rather have Data than B4.
And I'd rather have Spock than his cloney-thing created in the Genesis wave.

Yes stealing both bodies is ethically wrong but I don't think that I could stand more TNG Prime Universe with an even stupider Data.
Lance wrote: View Post
The fact that it's "ethically wrong" is very much the point.
...not sure I understand the "ethically wrong" thinking, but I really want to...can either of you please expound?...
By ethically wrong, I mean when they resurrected Spock they effectively murdered his clone. Just liked they murdered Trip's clone in ENT.
Same if they 'resurrected' Data in B4's brain and body.

I think with Spock they inferred his clone had no mind of its own even though it walked and punch and experienced pon farr. Since I'm so glad I got Spock back I'm not going to look at that logic too closely.

With Data and B4, the Federation barely accepted Data as a sentient entity, same with LAL so I don't think that there's going to be any legal problems if they pop Datas engrams into B4.
Anyway I don't know how the comics resurrected Data, perhaps they found another unused body using the same method as in NEM. So maybe B4 didn't have to die to get Data back. They can technobabble any solution they want.

I know people are saying the resurrection of Spock and the proposed resurrection of Data 'cheapens' the impact of their deaths. I find I don't care. I'm glad they're back. They're two of Star Trek best characters.

Get rid of Paris or Chapel or Riker. I'm not going to complain if youdon't resurrect them.
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Old July 15 2014, 12:56 PM   #30
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Re: Data's "death"

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Get rid of Paris or Chapel or Riker. I'm not going to complain if you don't resurrect them.
Hey, now! Don't be hasty ...

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