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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 12 2014, 09:57 PM   #1
Shat Happens
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Data's "death"

So Data phasered the antimatter reactor and the ship that looked like Picards's fish blew up, taking him wit it.

Do you consider that as a death as much of simply destroying a robot?

I other words Data died or Data was destroyed?

I use to think destroyed. I never really REALLY bought he was more than a very sophisticated machine. (btw I work with computers)
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Old July 12 2014, 10:04 PM   #2
bbjeg
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Re: Data's "death"

Picard (an eventually Starfleet) ruled him as a lifeform, so death sounds appropriate.
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Old July 12 2014, 10:13 PM   #3
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Data's "death"

In Trek's fantasy world, Data was really alive. So he died.
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Old July 12 2014, 10:42 PM   #4
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Re: Data's "death"

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
So Data phasered the antimatter reactor and the ship that looked like Picards's fish blew up, taking him wit it.

Do you consider that as a death as much of simply destroying a robot?

I other words Data died or Data was destroyed?

I use to think destroyed. I never really REALLY bought he was more than a very sophisticated machine. (btw I work with computers)
It's complicated.

Data transferred his memory banks to B4, basically a blank slate. It could be argued that Data's essence, or soul, was transferred. If that essence later emerged in B4, then only Data's body died.

We saw the beginnings of that emergence in NEM.
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Old July 12 2014, 11:19 PM   #5
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Re: Data's "death"

Seeing as how it was a very human sacrifice for the life of his Captain and friend (not to mention saving billions of lives), Data earned the right to have "died" and he is never coming back in any sort of convenient Data 2.0 body.
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Old July 12 2014, 11:39 PM   #6
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Re: Data's "death"

^ Data had the memories of the colonists who were later to be killed by the crystal entity downloaded into him, but he never "became" those people.

B4 similarly had Data's memories downloaded into it/him, but B4 will never become Data. B4 will one day become ... B4.

A Human's personality is partially the result of the people we learn from and otherwise interact with. Data's memories will likely have some influence on the "person" that B4 will one day become, but again B4 will not become Data.

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Old July 13 2014, 12:06 AM   #7
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Re: Data's "death"

T'Girl wrote: View Post
^ Data had the memories of the colonists who were later to be killed by the crystal entity downloaded into him, but he never "became" those people.

B4 similarly had Data's memories downloaded into it/him, but B4 will never become Data. B4 will one day become ... B4.
This has always been my take too.

The movie implies (and states outright, in the deleted scenes) that Data's goal in doing the transfer was not to 'overtake' B4, but simply to give his brother a little boost to help him start developing, something B4 has been unable to do to this point.

His intention seems to be that he wants B4 to become his own individual.

People have always assumed that the final scene of NEM somehow implies that Data has overtaken B4, or that the idea is that B4 would have become Data in some hypothetical sequel.

No.

The movie never says that.

The osmosis of adopting some of Data's memories is merely the first step towards B4 becoming his own self to grow and develop..

I truly believe, while it may have been a mechanism towards allowing Brent Spiner to return should they wish him to, I do dislike the idea that by extension he'd simply be playing Data and that B4 had ceased to exist.

I seriously don't see that as the intention... in fact it seems anti-ethical, certainly not something Data would do... the idea that the comics and other media have gone with it wholesale disturbs me somewhat.
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Old July 13 2014, 12:19 AM   #8
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Re: Data's "death"

^ I agree with that. But since they didn't actually show how B4 became Data again, that leaves open how it happened. Only that one of the current crop of screenwriters agreed to reverse the character's death, for their prequel comic dealing with post-Nemesis and Nero's backstory. You're right, in that it doesn't feel like something he would do. He sacrificed himself, so it doesn't fit he'd want somebody sacrificed to bring him back. I assume some dramatic circumstance and a moral dilemma led to one of his friends restoring Data, and wiping out whatever potential B4 had, in contradiction with his wishes. I assume he and Geordi had a falling out.
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Old July 13 2014, 12:33 AM   #9
Lance
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Re: Data's "death"

Forcing his presence into a lesser android is something I can see Lore doing. Which means it's very much something Data would abhor.

Everything we see suggests that Data intended to co-exist with B4. His "memory engram transfer" was merely like he was trying to update B4's firmware, but I think his intention could only have been that it give the lesser Android a 'boost' which would finally allow B4 to prosper and grow on his own terms. Just as Data did earlier in life.

I do dislike that the current batch of Prime universe material, be it Star Trek Online or the Countdown comic etc, all make the assumption that Data simply 'wiped out' B4 from existence and asserted himself into B4's body. I just can't reconcile that with Data's character.
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Old July 13 2014, 12:59 AM   #10
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Re: Data's "death"

urbandefault wrote: View Post
Shat Happens wrote: View Post
So Data phasered the antimatter reactor and the ship that looked like Picards's fish blew up, taking him wit it.

Do you consider that as a death as much of simply destroying a robot?

I other words Data died or Data was destroyed?

I use to think destroyed. I never really REALLY bought he was more than a very sophisticated machine. (btw I work with computers)
It's complicated.

Data transferred his memory banks to B4, basically a blank slate. It could be argued that Data's essence, or soul, was transferred. If that essence later emerged in B4, then only Data's body died.

We saw the beginnings of that emergence in NEM.
Only his body was in death! He entrusted B-4 with his very essence, with everything that was not of the body. He asked B-4 to bring him to us ... and bring that which he gave B-4, his katra, his living spirit....
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Old July 13 2014, 01:24 AM   #11
T'Girl
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Re: Data's "death"

It doesn't seem to jive with the person that Data was always shown to be.



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Old July 13 2014, 01:31 AM   #12
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Re: Data's "death"

Also, Data didnt know he would die/be destroyed soon after, unlike Spock.
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Old July 13 2014, 02:29 AM   #13
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Re: Data's "death"

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
Also, Data didnt know he would die/be destroyed soon after, unlike Spock.
He knew he only had one of those transporter thingymygigs.
And he knew the Scimitar had to be destroyed.
And he knew if it were possible he was going to give the transporter device to Picard.
I think it was a reasonable guess that he might not make it back. If it were a weekly episode he would know Geordi would come up with a technobabble solution to save him.
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Old July 13 2014, 02:40 AM   #14
Last Redshirt
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Re: Data's "death"

Data had been ruled a lifeform in season two so I think it's safe to assume that he indeed died. Also, Data did know that, if he was going to go over to the Scimitar to save Picard, he wasn't going to come back.
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Old July 13 2014, 04:28 AM   #15
dub
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Re: Data's "death"

I cared about Data in a completely different way than I care about computers. So to me he died.
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