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Old July 16 2014, 03:30 PM   #121
junkdata
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

Ithekro wrote: View Post
One things about Star Trek and at least ethnic groups, is that, at least in the 60s, you would have an Asian and an African on the bridge of the Enterprise, without it actually being pointed out for the most part. There were their as equals doing their job. Who is to say that there weren't homosexuals also on the bridge, doing there job. It is just there sexuality didn't come up, or they were not of the flamboyant types.

Is it about sexuality or about lifestyle? You wouldn't normally see flamboyant character types in a military setting or a serious setting like the bridge of a starship, would you? The stereotype "flaming homosexual" wouldn't be a standard type anymore, would it? After centuries of acceptance? There would be no reason for any extra social or cultural styles to be added to a character, when they aren't, in most cases, for the likes of Uhura and Sulu.

Sulu being Asian was almost never brought up. Uhura being African only came up, I think, twice were it had any meaning. Once when they encountered Abraham Lincoln, and then when she was being reeducated, her having learned Swahili first, then English. Chekov's Russian was done for laughs. Scott's accent was used just to be used. In The Next Generation Worf's Klingon was pushed a lot. Data being a android was pushed a lot. La'Forge being blind came up from time to time, but aside from his external appliance, most of the time it wasn't a issue unless the plot needed either his VISOR for reasons, or to make a situation.

If in the future straight and gay exist side by side in term of societial acceptance, why are only heteros depicted?

In universe reason?
Percentage of the population being homosexual or at least not heterosexual is what?
5-10 pc of the population is gay.

In all the thousands of star trek people, hook ups and couples, we havent seen two dudes holding hands in the back ground, and nothing but a spot of lipstick lesbianism and what? A plot conception that can be seen as somehow analogous to transgender people on earth.

The wire had omar little.

ST has beverly crushers relationship with a dude that turned into a dudette and then got rejected.

I see a lot of shows from America get lit up with hate on IMDB for having gay characters. Presumably things are worse in other non english speaking nations. In europe though its no big thing in most places, and frankly, star trek was a big enough franchise to include incidental homosexuality.

"its a family show waaaah"

Its the twenty first century, and this is a show about the future. Where are all the gays? Do the conservatives believe medicine eradicated homosexuality? Is that what star trek is saying?

All thats really happening, is a mob mentality is being allowed to trump freedom of association, and accurate representation on television.

Star trek lost viewing figures?

You know why? No one wants to watch a "boring and safe" show on space. When it started it was revolutionary, not boring.

We are now post HBO and post 9/11. We are post "post-9/11". we are post iraq and afghan. We are post NSA and almost post global recession. We are pretty close to being post NASA, with all the budget cuts. We are post black president and post DADT and post any decent series for almost 20 years.

How about we get a grown up star trek and not one aimed at prudes and gender tyrants.
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Old July 16 2014, 06:13 PM   #122
Ithekro
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

Well do remember that nearly all the Star Trek mentioned was from the 20th century. There was a sliver of Voyager in the 21st and all of Enterprise, but Enterprise is not in the "enlightened" Federation, but the more flawed post WWIII human 22nd century. And it only lasted 4 years.

The only other possible recourse is the new film, of which there are two, and aside from focus on Kirk and Spock, there hasn't been all that much time to devote to characters that don't have more or less established characteristics from their 20th century versions.
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Old July 16 2014, 06:18 PM   #123
T'Girl
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

junkdata wrote: View Post
"its a family show waaaah"
Joan of Arcadia, a very Christian family drama, had the character of Grace who was obviously attracted to Joan.

If a Christian show can deal with a gay character, why not Star Trek?

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Old July 16 2014, 09:25 PM   #124
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

junkdata wrote: View Post
How about we get a grown up star trek
At this point I would take almost ANY Star Trek, even if it was based on the adventures of the U.S.S. Duggar.
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Old July 16 2014, 10:13 PM   #125
Nightdiamond
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

junkdata wrote: View Post
Its the twenty first century, and this is a show about the future. Where are all the gays? Do the conservatives believe medicine eradicated homosexuality? Is that what star trek is saying?

All thats really happening, is a mob mentality is being allowed to trump freedom of association, and accurate representation on television.
Obviously, Trek's weakness was that it on network broadcast TV and had to answer to sponsors and conservative fans. It got great ratings, but it had to bend to worried studio heads and certain fans.

Star trek lost viewing figures?

You know why? No one wants to watch a "boring and safe" show on space. When it started it was revolutionary, not boring.
Maybe that's why TV shows are changing--much more risque, daring. I doubt a show with the Trek formulas of TNG and early 90's would as much a hit now.

A character can't easily techno babble a way out a problem now.

Some cable shows are 'in your face' from the start and don't worry about upsetting some fans.

How about we get a grown up star trek and not one aimed at prudes and gender tyrants.
Game of thrones has cursing, nudity, and violence. It featured a gay relationship with a love scene. Its ratings get higher every season. ( But honestly, some of their scenes are outright nuts or gross though)

Trek has a catch-all saving grace-- since humans have no prejudices in the 24th century, then homosexuality is no longer an issue.

Therefore you can't accuse the Trek universe of avoiding homosexuality, because ----it's not an issue to begin with.

You just happened to have never seen a gay character or couple on there before.
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Old July 16 2014, 10:21 PM   #126
borgboy
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

Not seeing a real positive gay character in hundreds of hours of movies and television is definitely avoiding homosexuality.
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Old July 16 2014, 10:58 PM   #127
Maurice
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

T'Girl wrote: View Post
What makes you think that person is a "she?" Just a young man trying something different.

Both Spock and Sulu used blue eye shadow at one point.

Then "trying something different" includes trying breasts.

Here's the actress (link).
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Old July 16 2014, 11:28 PM   #128
mendelin
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

I wonder, how many of people in this thread (who wants to see LGBT-character in Star Trek) are gays?

People, please, be honest. Is there at least one LGBT - person, who is interested in this thing?

I suppose, that many of LGBT-people are indifferent to this issue. They live with their life.

Most activists are heterosexual people (mostly girls and sometimes young boys), who wants to see some exotic relationships, because it's funnier than common one.
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Old July 16 2014, 11:37 PM   #129
T'Girl
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

junkdata wrote: View Post
... medicine eradicated homosexuality? Is that what star trek is saying?
The idea does get floated here.

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Trek has a catch-all saving grace-- since humans have no prejudices in the 24th century ...
Watch Picard in The Neutral Zone again, he was prejudice against the people from the 20th century before they even woke for the first time.

Therefore you can't accuse the Trek universe of avoiding homosexuality ...
Yes I can, and I do.

because ----it's not an issue to begin with.
It very obviously is

You just happened to have never seen a gay character or couple on there before.
Because the show was written that way, it's not a case of "just happen." As written, the Federation, Starfleet, Earth, etc. contained no gays, no bi's, no trans, at all. Zero.

The Star Trek universe is deliberately structured with only heterosexuals.

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Old July 16 2014, 11:43 PM   #130
borgboy
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

I'm gay, and pretty outspoken about it. I've known lots of LGBT people who were also Trek fans who wanted to see LGBT representation. Media representation is pretty important to most LGBT people, although obviously that's just one issue of many that people care about.

It's great that there are straight allies who support representation. The numbers of how many straight/not-straight people in the issue doesn't seem important to me. I don't think most straight people that support diversity and representation see it as "funnier". That's a really odd thing to say, I don't get that at all. Sexier, maybe, but many people genuinely care about fairness in media visability. I'm a white man and I'm also passionate about seeing strong females and people of color in the media. It's ok to support minority groups you aren't a part of.

I don't really get the point. I am "living my life". I can be a gay Trekkie who cares about diversity and representation and still have a life. The tone of that comment seems to suggest suggest that LGBT people who care about gays in Trek don't have a life. Unlike those cool LGBT people who are indifferent to the issue.
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Old July 17 2014, 12:14 AM   #131
mendelin
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

borgboy, thank you for your post!

borgboy wrote: View Post
Media representation is pretty important to most LGBT people, although obviously that's just one issue of many that people care about.
Totally agree with you. And, I think, this representation should be done properly. Would you agree? Many straight people have no idea, what is it "to be gay". They need explanation. It's not enough just insert a character and give him words "Hi, I'm gay" (like in Warehouse 13). So, I think, it's quite complex thing. Unfortunately, many of shows/movies with LGBT-character can't properly represent this character. Star Trek always had problems with love-stories, there is a big chance, that it will have problems with this issue too.

borgboy wrote: View Post
I don't think most straight people that support diversity and representation see it as "funnier". That's a really odd thing to say, I don't get that at all. Sexier, maybe...
Well, maybe "funnier" is a wrong word. There are plenty of stories about traditional relationship. It becomes boring, I suppose. Yes, sexier and exotic.

borgboy wrote: View Post
I don't really get the point. I am "living my life". I can be a gay Trekkie who cares about diversity and representation and still have a life. The tone of that comment seems to suggest suggest that LGBT people who care about gays in Trek don't have a life. Unlike those cool LGBT people who are indifferent to the issue.
The point:
I supposed, that most people, who want LGBT-character in ST, are straight young excited girls and boys with big interest to exotic issues.
And most of LGBT ST fans allow themselves be more calm towards this issue.
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Old July 17 2014, 12:14 AM   #132
T'Girl
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

Maurice wrote: View Post

Just a young man trying something different.
Then "trying something different" includes trying breasts.
I'm transsexual Maurice, there are pharmaceuticals that will cause breasts to grow, there are also breast forms. Depends if you want temporary boobies or permanent.

Yes the actress was female, but what about the character?

In the first pilot The Cage, the Keeper was male, but was depicted by a actress.

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Old July 17 2014, 12:29 AM   #133
junkdata
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

mendelin wrote: View Post
I wonder, how many of people in this thread (who wants to see LGBT-character in Star Trek) are gays?

People, please, be honest. Is there at least one LGBT - person, who is interested in this thing?

I suppose, that many of LGBT-people are indifferent to this issue. They live with their life.

Most activists are heterosexual people (mostly girls and sometimes young boys), who wants to see some exotic relationships, because it's funnier than common one.
I think the gay people will admit it.

I personally just want to see some realism. The whole things seems silly.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post

Just a young man trying something different.
Then "trying something different" includes trying breasts.
I'm transsexual Maurice, there are pharmaceuticals that will cause breasts to grow, there are also breast forms. Depends if you want temporary boobies or permanent.

Yes the actress was female, but what about the character?

In the first pilot The Cage, the Keeper was male, but was depicted by a actress.

Whats the giveaways, so I know?

Hands? the groin join? lack of lubrication? adams apple? Shoulder width?

Equip me with your knowledge.
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Old July 17 2014, 12:39 AM   #134
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

mendelin wrote: View Post
Most activists are heterosexual people (mostly girls and sometimes young boys), who wants to see some exotic relationships, because it's funnier than common one.
I'd like to see the statistics you used to make this statement.
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Old July 17 2014, 01:02 AM   #135
borgboy
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

I'd imagine if McCoy can help an elderly sick woman grow a new kidney in minutes with a pill, some pretty amazing and wonderful procedures would be available in the 23rd century for trans people to transition. So, hypothetically at least, there shouldn't be any way to look at someone in ST and know if they are living in the gender they were born in biologically.

There are more straight people than gay people, so possibly there are more straight people that want to see LGBT diversity in Trek - the greater numbers of straight people do make that a possibility. That doesn't mean that there aren't gay people who want the same thing (there are). I don't see what difference it makes what percents the sexual orientations are for that group of people is, or what their ages are. It's generally accepted that there's less homophobia among younger people, so that may be the case. And I appreciate every one of them. Thank you, straight allies.

I feel like the case is being made that LGBT people don't really care about gays in Trek and the campaign for that is being presented as being made up of slash happy "fan girls", and that this is supposed to be a bad thing. I love slash, love slash fans, and I don't agree that this is true or would be bad if it were true. I am gay and I am far from calm on the issue of gays in Trek, and I know there are many other LGBT Trekkie on the boards who do care, and many other fans that aren't active in fandom who care.

I don't want to be presented as being invisible in the social issues of my fandom. I'm part of this.
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