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Old July 11 2014, 01:20 PM   #16
Trek Survivor
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

Last Redshirt wrote: View Post
A lot of stations in the South were mightly pissed at the interracial kiss in Plato's Stepchildren.
Evidence? And not just Roddenberry or Nichols saying it... there was talk at the time that the producers were worried it MIGHT offend some southern stations but I have never seen any evidence that they actually were "mightily pissed". More Roddenberry mythbuilding, methinks.

As for the original topic, no, I don't think it's fair to use the word "pathetic" here.
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Old July 11 2014, 01:23 PM   #17
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

I would still use the word "pathetic" but I would substitute "totally" for "slightly".
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Old July 11 2014, 02:11 PM   #18
1001001
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

junkdata wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
junkdata wrote: View Post
The twilight zone was responsible for a lot of forward thinking stuff too.

But Rod Serling was a homophobe who made public videos talking about gays like they were pedos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkzSVR2Oqck
A PSA from the 1950s referring to child molesters as homosexuals is itself pretty flimsy evidence of homophobia in its narrator.

That said, and despite whatever influence The Twilight Zone had on how sci-fi was presented on TV in the 1960s, what do Rod Serling's specific views one way or another on the subject of homosexuality have to do with either General Trek issues or homosexuality or the lack of it in Star Trek, particularly in the spin-offs from the 1980s onward?
They are neck a neck for the two greatest sci fi shows in history.

Both are responsible for demonstrable and profound ground breaking moments in TV history, especially when it comes to the area of civil rights and representation on television.

The twilight zone became known for this. Star trek also is forever known for kirk kissing uhura and a lot of other stuff.

So I think TZ is relevant, when setting up the context of this discussion. If there is a third show that could claim anything like the impact of TZ and ST, in the history of sci fi, I cant think of it. Both traded in ground breaking tv, and specifically used their detached from our world settings to do so.

Its sad that even in the twilight zone and outer space, much like Iran - "there are no gays".
Okay, let's see here...

First, if you want to talk about Rod Serling, The Twilight Zone, etc. you can feel free to do so in the Sci-Fi/Fantasy Forum. This forum is for General Trek related discussions.

Second, you've stared 8 threads in less than 36 hours (6 in this forum). My advice (which you are of course free to accept or not) is to chill out a little bit. Read through the forums, get to know the "culture" here (such as it is... ), and contribute thoughtfully when you have something to add.

From our FAQ: Spamming can even just be posting too much. As a general rule, don't post more than two or three threads in a forum within a reasonable length of time.

Thanks.
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Old July 11 2014, 02:17 PM   #19
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

1001001 wrote: View Post
junkdata wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

A PSA from the 1950s referring to child molesters as homosexuals is itself pretty flimsy evidence of homophobia in its narrator.

That said, and despite whatever influence The Twilight Zone had on how sci-fi was presented on TV in the 1960s, what do Rod Serling's specific views one way or another on the subject of homosexuality have to do with either General Trek issues or homosexuality or the lack of it in Star Trek, particularly in the spin-offs from the 1980s onward?
They are neck a neck for the two greatest sci fi shows in history.

Both are responsible for demonstrable and profound ground breaking moments in TV history, especially when it comes to the area of civil rights and representation on television.

The twilight zone became known for this. Star trek also is forever known for kirk kissing uhura and a lot of other stuff.

So I think TZ is relevant, when setting up the context of this discussion. If there is a third show that could claim anything like the impact of TZ and ST, in the history of sci fi, I cant think of it. Both traded in ground breaking tv, and specifically used their detached from our world settings to do so.

Its sad that even in the twilight zone and outer space, much like Iran - "there are no gays".
Okay, let's see here...

First, if you want to talk about Rod Serling, The Twilight Zone, etc. you can feel free to do so in the Sci-Fi/Fantasy Forum. This forum is for General Trek related discussions.

Second, you've stared 8 threads in less than 36 hours (6 in this forum). My advice (which you are of course free to accept or not) is to chill out a little bit. Read through the forums, get to know the "culture" here (such as it is... ), and contribute thoughtfully when you have something to add.

From our FAQ: Spamming can even just be posting too much. As a general rule, don't post more than two or three threads in a forum within a reasonable length of time.

Thanks.
The TZ thing was asked and answered, as contextual to sci fi. Roddenbery and Serling were friends as well iirc.

To be fair, Im not a big trekkie, but I did have 25 years worth of questions to ask on this awesome series.

I appreciate the polite and professional manner with which you addressed me, and I defer to your role on this site though.

Im not big on "culture" of hive mind either, but thank you for the opportunity to ask some questions to the experts.

Good weekend.
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Old July 11 2014, 02:28 PM   #20
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

Are you not of the Body?
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Old July 11 2014, 03:46 PM   #21
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

It is more than slightly pathetic Trek has never shown an LGBT character. In the 60s such a thing would've been a step too far, even in the 80s when TNG started, I doubt many in power would've been willing to show a gay character on screen. But by the time of DS9 there should've been some movement made towards it (the Dax/Kahn kiss doesn't count as that was a romance bewteen the Symbionts, not the hosts). There definitely should've been representation in VOY and its pretty much unforgivable when ENT came along. Whilst NuTrek should hang its head in shame for not finally admitting the true relationshipn between Kirk and Spock!

When we get a new Trek series, there should be a gay male captain, a bisexual female first officer, a gay female ops manager, a transgender security chief, a bisexual male doctor, and a gender-neutral engineer, in order to finally right the wrong--with heterosexuals in place as science officer, counsellor and conn officer. Ok, maybe a slight exaggeration, but they would have to make sure that their gay character was done properly and not just given a lip service--with more to who they are and what drives them other than their orientation.
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Old July 11 2014, 05:56 PM   #22
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

Star Trek has done a lot, but don't blame it for not doing everything first.
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Old July 11 2014, 06:11 PM   #23
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
In the 60s such a thing would've been a step too far, even in the 80s when TNG started, I doubt many in power would've been willing to show a gay character on screen.
I would agree that TOS, given the time period, would get a pass, however during TNG, especially later TNG, there should have been "the big step" of including LGBT characters occasionally.

If they couldn't figure out how to do it right, then go ahead and do it wrong.

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Old July 11 2014, 06:25 PM   #24
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
In the 60s such a thing would've been a step too far, even in the 80s when TNG started, I doubt many in power would've been willing to show a gay character on screen.
I would agree that TOS, given the time period, would get a pass, however during TNG, especially later TNG, there should have been "the big step" of including LGBT characters occasionally.

If they couldn't figure out how to do it right, then go ahead and do it wrong.

They could honestly have a token character and it would still work. They could have an alien race in one episode and it could still work. Theres no need to really have some captain who is gay, but frankly that would be a really bold move if they did.

Tokenism gets criticism, but when the sum of desired progress is establishing homosexuality in the mainstream as a healthy and natural lifestyle, as it is in real life, then tokenism works in this case. A science officer "who happens to be gay" or a planet that happens to have different gender distinctions... it really dont matter, because its just establishing the normal.
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Old July 11 2014, 06:39 PM   #25
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

Anji wrote: View Post
The moral debate is irrelevant. You couldn't get a character like that past the censors in those days. And remember, the censors work for the people who fronted a good portion of money to get your series made. You upset them enough, they'll pull their money and you won't have any show period.

TOS pushed it very far having minorities in intelligent command positions on the Enterprise and Roddenberry was damned lucky he got that. He lost having a woman being second in command. He did win with Nichelle Nichols having the right to wear a mini-skirt, which was a victory for the women's movement in the 60s.
It was the network and the sponsors ( the people who fronted a good portion of money to get your series made) who pushed for minority characters in Star Trek and other shows. The Cage was pretty white in terms of the cast. Even Jose Tyler, a Brazilian in the outline, was played by a non Hispanic. If you bother to look at Star Trek's Sixties contemporaries you'll see an up tick in the number of non whites in supporting and leading roles. Star Trek was not alone in this and GR was not a lone voice in the wilderness.

Star Trek isn't just TOS. The franchise was on movie and TV screens for three decades after TOS. In those decades LGBT representation in the media has increased, but not on Star Trek.
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Old July 11 2014, 07:07 PM   #26
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

JesterFace wrote: View Post
Star Trek has done a lot, but don't blame it for not doing everything first.
Thing is, there isn't much that it did "first".
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Old July 11 2014, 07:20 PM   #27
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

BillJ wrote: View Post
JesterFace wrote: View Post
Star Trek has done a lot, but don't blame it for not doing everything first.
Thing is, there isn't much that it did "first".
I wonder if Kirk had kissed Takei instead of Uhura, what would the fall out have been?

Gay klingons? do they exist?

I think when we are living in a world, where even DADT is a thing of the past, we need to acknowledge uniform = some gay people. Unless we are living in a future where homosexuality has been eradicated (something of a total anathema to other trek values), then lack of homosexuality is a sin of omission. Family show or not. This is less a case of "family show" dont push liberal agenda at people, and more a case of fair representation when you have that many characters.

It should almost be legally mandated that gays are in space on shows like ST.
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Old July 11 2014, 07:25 PM   #28
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

junkdata wrote: View Post
Gay klingons? do they exist?
Obviously, "pain sticks" is just a euphemism.
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Old July 11 2014, 09:30 PM   #29
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

junkdata wrote: View Post
a token character
What could possibly lead you to the misconception that such a finely written character would be a token? As oppose to a simply recognition of the normal ditribution of sexualities within Human society?

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Old July 11 2014, 10:07 PM   #30
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

BillJ wrote: View Post
JesterFace wrote: View Post
Star Trek has done a lot, but don't blame it for not doing everything first.
Thing is, there isn't much that it did "first".
Tell us more... few examples?
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