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Old July 17 2014, 01:15 AM   #136
junkdata
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

borgboy wrote: View Post
I'd imagine if McCoy can help an elderly sick woman grow a new kidney in minutes with a pill, some pretty amazing and wonderful procedures would be available in the 23rd century for trans people to transition. So, hypothetically at least, there shouldn't be any way to look at someone in ST and know if they are living in the gender they were born in biologically.

There are more straight people than gay people, so possibly there are more straight people that want to see LGBT diversity in Trek - the greater numbers of straight people do make that a possibility. That doesn't mean that there aren't gay people who want the same thing (there are). I don't see what difference it makes what percents the sexual orientations are for that group of people is, or what their ages are. It's generally accepted that there's less homophobia among younger people, so that may be the case. And I appreciate every one of them. Thank you, straight allies.

I feel like the case is being made that LGBT people don't really care about gays in Trek and the campaign for that is being presented as being made up of slash happy "fan girls", and that this is supposed to be a bad thing. I love slash, love slash fans, and I don't agree that this is true or would be bad if it were true. I am gay and I am far from calm on the issue of gays in Trek, and I know there are many other LGBT Trekkie on the boards who do care, and many other fans that aren't active in fandom who care.

I don't want to be presented as being invisible in the social issues of my fandom. I'm part of this.
I dont really care about gay people as a distinct group, and frankly, I find the whole gay thing kind of irksome.

Thats why Im not gay.

I do believe in human rights tho, and freedom of association, and frankly that doesn't mean I have to watch gay films and go to gay clubs. The bottom line for me, is its a false representation and a political act NOT to include gay people in a show that is ostensibly liberal and realistic in its depiction of relationships and human interactions, and inclusive of the cream of the planet, in its space fleet.

Its basically DADT in space as it stood, and thats frankly ridiculous. Im pretty sure a lot of other shows have had gay characters.

Gay people are a significant percentage of the population.

Do I like watching Omar kiss his BF in the wire? Nope. Its a bit sickly to be honest.

The fact is, he is a realistic character, and therefore he might well be gay. When he is going around doing his thing, everyone cheers for him, but you have to accept that the dude is gay. Its an intrinsic part of his character. He isnt shown to have a "gay personality" in stereotype. But its presented as unequivocally his sexual persuasion and thats part of the character.

Of course some people will want to humanise homosexuality on television. That's political goal, and one that speaks to the political struggles, oppression and marginalisation that gay people as a specific group have faced. But even if you look at it from the other angle, what are we watching, when its meant to be humanity, and it hasnt been in any way homosexualised?

As a straight guy, who just wants to watch a credible show, its ridiculous.

Last edited by junkdata; July 17 2014 at 01:32 AM.
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Old July 17 2014, 01:28 AM   #137
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post

Just a young man trying something different.
Then "trying something different" includes trying breasts.
I'm transsexual Maurice, there are pharmaceuticals that will cause breasts to grow, there are also breast forms. Depends if you want temporary boobies or permanent.

Yes the actress was female, but what about the character?

In the first pilot The Cage, the Keeper was male, but was depicted by a actress.

I'm well aware of this. I have trans friends. All I said was, "Then "trying something different" includes trying breasts. " not just makeup, which is what you mentioned.

And the Keeper doesn't really count as an example, as that was a deliberate production decision to make them seem more alien by casting smallish women to make them seem frail but giving them masculine voices (same as for the Binars). For all we know, the Talosians have one sex or six.
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Old July 17 2014, 01:33 AM   #138
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

For what it's worth, the novel Burning Dreams describes the Talosians as being hermaphrodites. Excellent novel too, all about Pike.
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Old July 17 2014, 02:35 AM   #139
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

It is a pretty sad statement about our current culture that it's impossible to have a gay character who just has relationships the same way the straight characters do without it being interpreted as a political statement.

In my observation the whole 'gay politics' is an invention of the opposing side. What anti-gay advocates see as 'A political agenda to change our culture by force', actual gay people see as 'Living their lives the way they choose to'.

I tend to think that Star Trek's omission of homosexual characters wasn't an intentional snub so much as something that the writers didn't think about because they were in the habit of writing heterosexual relationships, and possibly a little bit to avoid the accusation of doing it for political reasons. Though it would have been nice if they did include gay characters.
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Old July 17 2014, 02:40 AM   #140
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

There are plenty of examples of Trek writers toying with LGBT themes, like the Outcast, Dax's ex wife, etc. So I don't believe for a minute that the writers forgot to include a gay character ever as an oversight. I can understand why it wasn't done in decades past, as the political climate made it very risky to include gays in past decades, but it was gutless to not have included a gay character in Enterprise, and there is no excuse that it's been continued now into the 21st century movies.
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Old July 17 2014, 03:11 AM   #141
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

junkdata wrote: View Post
I find the whole gay thing kind of irksome. That's why I'm not gay.
That's ... really not the way it works.

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Old July 17 2014, 03:47 AM   #142
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
In my observation the whole 'gay politics' is an invention of the opposing side. What anti-gay advocates see as 'A political agenda to change our culture by force', actual gay people see as 'Living their lives the way they choose to'.

I tend to think that Star Trek's omission of homosexual characters wasn't an intentional snub so much as something that the writers didn't think about because they were in the habit of writing heterosexual relationships, and possibly a little bit to avoid the accusation of doing it for political reasons. Though it would have been nice if they did include gay characters.
Based on this, let's play devil's advocate for a minute.

Is it fair to place so much responsibility on Trek to show gay characters to begin with?

What if it's just a sci fi show that wants to out out entertaining stories about humans in a positive future?

Was the Kirk and Uhura kiss a political statement, or simply a necessary part of the story, and the producers and the actors weren't going to back down?

In the next Trek series, if they show a same sex relationship, in a normal context, would it end up being a political statement or a necessary part of the story?

Would there be a "they finally did it!" tone to it?

And if Beverly wasn't being homophobic when she rejected another female, is Trek being homophobic because LGBT are not seen onscreen?
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Old July 17 2014, 03:55 AM   #143
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

I don't really care for romance stories in science fiction to begin with, so adding gay characters to Star Trek just means more opportunities for love stories I don't want to see.
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Old July 17 2014, 04:09 AM   #144
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

I just think the lack of gay characters in Star Trek wasn't based on a decision not to show gay people so much as 500 decisions to show straight people. Writers were coming up with stories based on their own experience and what kind of storylines have shown results for them in the past.
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Old July 17 2014, 04:13 AM   #145
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

If there are no gay characters, there will just be more straight characters, who are realistically going to have a better chance at getting more romantic scenes anyways.

It's also not as if the only story that can be told with gay characters is a romance.

I don't want a "they finally did it!" moment. Any half way decent writer can use a gay character naturally in the story. This isn't all that hard to do. What would be worse than "they finally did it!" is to continue the rather embarassing history of continuing to erase LGBT from Trek's future. Gay characters belong in Trek's "entertaining stories of humans in a positive future". That future is starting to look less positive and more homophobic with the continued erasure, just as it would look pretty racist if we'd never seen a person of color in it's nearly 50 years of history.

What's going on here is called erasure, where minorities don't seem to exist in a work of fiction. That might not be so bad in one or two movies, but over the course of hundreds of hours and hundreds of characters, it is homophobic.

People have every right to their opinion, but I don't think a cis straight person has the right to tell gay people a half century history of LGBT erasure isn't homophobic. I mean, sure, you can say it, but I find it kind of insulting. It seems like every few days I read someone suggesting that gays have been "cured" or all wiped out in Trek, and their history of erasure leaves that possibility at least remotely possible to people who ignore the novels. I give credit to the novels for bringing LGBT inclusion where the movies and tv series have failed to live up Trek's legacy of diversity.
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Old July 17 2014, 04:17 AM   #146
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I just think the lack of gay characters in Star Trek wasn't based on a decision not to show gay people so much as 500 decisions to show straight people. Writers were coming up with stories based on their own experience and what kind of storylines have shown results for them in the past.
We know that some of Trek's writers were gay, and Gerrold's Blood and Fire episode did include gay characters and it was rejected, and from what I've read Gerrold faced some pretty ugly homophobic harassment that led to him no longer writing for TNG.

The erasure of gays from the hundreds of episodes and dozen movies of Trek was not an oversight or an accident. It was a choice that was made repeatedly. Many Trek actors including Stewart, Avery, Mulgrew and Bakula approached TPTB about including gay characters, so TPTB were aware of the issue and they chose every time not to include LGBT characters.
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Old July 17 2014, 04:47 AM   #147
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

Someone (in another thread) suggested that homosexuality or bisexuality could be acknowledged by having one of the cat people that Kirk was in bed with in STID be a guy (male cat person).
The thing is, if that was done I think that's all we'd be talking about now. I can see the bylines 'Star Trek's Captain Kirk is gay'. Who'd care about Marcus' underwear?

I think making Kirk or Spock or McCoy gay or bisexual would change the emphasis of the movies unless it were written in a very clever way (and I don't think the writers are up to it). I think any other characters are fair game though.

Like some other posters here I'm not keen on any romance in a Star trek movie. Unless its necessary to the story or in the background. I just don't think Star trek ever does it well.
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Old July 17 2014, 04:58 AM   #148
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

That was me that suggested the bisexual cat person threeway lol
I'd rather we had gotten that the Marcus underwear debacle. That was an off the cuff throwaway idea, and I'm sure something better could be done than that, but I wouldn't have hated it if it had happened.
I'm not campagining to really make an established character be revealed as bi - but it could be done, and I wouldn't hate it if it happened. Every movie introduces several new characters though.
As for Trek and romance, there are a few good examples - Sarek and Amanda come to mind as being very well done, but that is admitedly an exception to the rule. I don't expect any gay character to get any more or less romantic development than the straight characters. Gay character does not equal more romance than a straight character.
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Old July 17 2014, 05:30 AM   #149
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

borgboy wrote: View Post
That was me that suggested the bisexual cat person threeway lol
I'd rather we had gotten that the Marcus underwear debacle. That was an off the cuff throwaway idea, and I'm sure something better could be done than that, but I wouldn't have hated it if it had happened.
Actually I thought the idea was good. A gay/bisexual character acknowledged with no fuss.
Unfortunately I feel that even in the 21st century that Paramount is not prepared to risk any backlash. Personally I think if they had done it, it would have bought in more money at the box office.
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Old July 17 2014, 06:14 AM   #150
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Re: Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

borgboy wrote: View Post

We know that some of Trek's writers were gay, and Gerrold's Blood and Fire episode did include gay characters and it was rejected, and from what I've read Gerrold faced some pretty ugly homophobic harassment that led to him no longer writing for TNG.
I'm not exactly sure how that all played out but "Blood and Fire" being axed and Gerrold's exit may have had more to do with the wrangling over "Created by" credit on the series. D.C. Fontana and Bob Justman also left the series early on and were also involved in the "Created by" conflict.
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