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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 12 2014, 11:01 PM   #31
Set Harth
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Even if that were true, how can you bet on its destruction being retconned?
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Old July 14 2014, 09:18 PM   #32
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Even if that were true, how can you bet on its destruction being retconned?
``THIS is Romulus! The supernova destroyed Remus six months after we were left here. Your dear Ambassador Spock never bothered to check on our progress…''
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Old July 14 2014, 10:37 PM   #33
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
I'd like to get the thoughts of TrekBBS people on this issue, and then re-watch the movie myself.

And FYI, anyone who mentions things we saw in flashback as evidence is going to be reminded that Delta Vega is about a kilometre away from Vulcan in Spock's imagination.
Well, some wanking is needed in Science Fiction. It is Science FICTION after all, not Science. But the science part means SOMETHING. It's not Fantasy. The Science part should at least limit the wankitude. To me, the idea of a "Supernova" traveling at Warp Speed, that can threaten the whole Galaxy, and that can be "sucked back" by Red Goo was well beyond that limit.

If any future writing and production team wanted to ignore that, I would certainly not complain. I am not even against destroying Romulus or Vulcan in principle. But the crazy plot these guys cooked up was just not plausible in any way to me. Let alone that a Miner (a frakking Miner?!?), would even be privy to these events. Does the Pentagon normally brief miners on Top secret projects? Not to mention that this so-called "miner" has a "mining ship" that's armed like a Dominion Battleship. The whole thing was preposterous.
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Old July 14 2014, 10:56 PM   #34
AirCommodore
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

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Pretty sure they show the Hobus shockwave obliterating Romulus.
It must have been a slow motion camera. If that shockwave was in real time, then it is clearly traveling a tiny fraction of the speed of light. Which means it should have taken many, many years to reach Romulus, and millions of years to slowly propagate through the Galaxy. That would have given them lots and lots of time to react to it.

In any case the idea that you could "suck back" a shockwave and all the stellar matter spread from light years behind it is as absurd as the rest of the plot of ST '09.
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Old July 14 2014, 11:20 PM   #35
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Ones does what fans and authors have been doing for at least the last 40 years....making it work, rather than ignoring it.

I seem to recall there are already several explanations in Star Trek Online to how and why that supernova was like that and how it was fixed. Also the tie-in comic on why Nero's ship was so well armed (it wasn't before Romulus was destroyed...it was due to a technological refit of Borg tech the Romulans had keep in secret following the alliance with the Federation and Klingons started during the Dominion War. The upgrade was authorized by someone in the Senate to stop the invasion of the Romulan Star Empire by the Klingons, whom Nero betrayed and murdered with the staff he used to kill the captain of the USS Kelvin. The upgrades were used to defeat a large number of late 24th century Klingon warships and crippled the USS Enterprise-E that came to stop Nero from getting to Spock (the Enterprise also picked up a wounded Worf, would was with the Klingon forces on Martok's orders.) The damage to Enterprise-E prevented them from chasing Nero down before Spock drops the Red Matter, leading Nero and Spock being sucked through the time-space distortion "black hole" thing. Enterprise arrives too late to rescue Spock, but acknowledges that his mission stopped the supernova from causing more damage that it already had.

Whatever was done to Hobus was not natural, and stopping the source of the supernova cut off the blast wave from expanding much farther than it already had into Romulan space, because something about the explosion was fueling the wave as it expanded outwards, that cutting it off would stop.

No it doesn't make sense normally, but it is clear this was not a normal, or natural supernova. Someone was mucking around the Hobus system with some sort of super weapon.
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Old July 14 2014, 11:47 PM   #36
AirCommodore
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
Ones does what fans and authors have been doing for at least the last 40 years....making it work, rather than ignoring it.

I seem to recall there are already several explanations in Star Trek Online to how and why that supernova was like that and how it was fixed. Also the tie-in comic on why Nero's ship was so well armed (it wasn't before Romulus was destroyed...it was due to a technological refit of Borg tech the Romulans had keep in secret following the alliance with the Federation and Klingons started during the Dominion War. The upgrade was authorized by someone in the Senate to stop the invasion of the Romulan Star Empire by the Klingons, whom Nero betrayed and murdered with the staff he used to kill the captain of the USS Kelvin. The upgrades were used to defeat a large number of late 24th century Klingon warships and crippled the USS Enterprise-E that came to stop Nero from getting to Spock (the Enterprise also picked up a wounded Worf, would was with the Klingon forces on Martok's orders.) The damage to Enterprise-E prevented them from chasing Nero down before Spock drops the Red Matter, leading Nero and Spock being sucked through the time-space distortion "black hole" thing. Enterprise arrives too late to rescue Spock, but acknowledges that his mission stopped the supernova from causing more damage that it already had.

Whatever was done to Hobus was not natural, and stopping the source of the supernova cut off the blast wave from expanding much farther than it already had into Romulan space, because something about the explosion was fueling the wave as it expanded outwards, that cutting it off would stop.

No it doesn't make sense normally, but it is clear this was not a normal, or natural supernova. Someone was mucking around the Hobus system with some sort of super weapon.
To make it work though, it has to work. And the post-script and post-film attempts to rescue the film from its own plot absurdities fails IMHO. The best thing to do in situations like this, for fans and writers alike, is to just ignore the parts that don't work. Whether it's no female Captains in Kirks time, or Warp Speed supernovas, don't try to make it work. It wont. Just ignore it and move on.

Clearly no supernova could ever do that. And that is what it was said to be in the film. Romulus being destroyed by a hostile Alien force is fine. Just ditch the Warp Speed supernova. That's not possible. Maybe Romulus was bombed in such a way that it made it seem like Section 31 was responsible, even though they weren't. Thus the Federation was blamed.

That would be a way to keep some story essentials, but leave the silliness out. And "no" on miners having access to top secret tech, commanding or stealing super ships, or even knowing that they are being built. He shouldn't have known anything about this, let alone be at the center of it. It seems that the idea was that planets would be drilled into and the Goo inserted, so they made it a Mining Ship.

The whole thing is so transparently laughable that I have no doubt, many post-film/post-script explanations have been developed to make some kind of sense of this nutty plot. But I think they fail.
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Old July 14 2014, 11:57 PM   #37
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

The miner was not a super ship at the start of the comic (though it was large so it could stay in system and collect a lot of materials). The reasoning for it being make the "super ship" was basically that was the only Romulan ship the Senator could find.

The other thing of course is that the idea of it being a super ship is based on perspective. In the comic it is made to seem rather powerful as it takes out numbers of birds of prey, and damages the Enterprise-E. However when it does into the past, it is dealing with ships that are almost 150 years older than it in terms of technology, even before the Borg tech. Borg tech that uses missiles at that. It is disabled by being rammed by a single Federation ship that is at least 150 years older than where this mining ship came from. Then it was captured by a ton of tiny Klingon ships for 25 years. They manage to finally escape and take out a number of tiny Klingon ships, then seven 150 plus backward tech Federation ships, and then get bested by a ship that is over 100 years older than it when it finally has a warning about it being there.

Not quite so super ship like. Just big with a lot of missiles.
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Old July 15 2014, 12:20 AM   #38
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Nebusj wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
Even if that were true, how can you bet on its destruction being retconned?
``THIS is Romulus! The supernova destroyed Remus six months after we were left here. Your dear Ambassador Spock never bothered to check on our progress…''
THIS! But with NuKhan somehow shunted between realities to cause havoc with early 25th century Admiral Picard.
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Old July 15 2014, 01:24 AM   #39
C.E. Evans
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Romulus is dead. Long live Romulus.

Personally, I think that--after a period of upheaval in which they may enter another period of isolationism--the Romulan Empire will return with a new planet called Romulus or New Romulus.

As far as how Romulus was destroyed, I chalk it up to it being more than a supernova, but also a tightly-focused (and directional) subspace blast, that took out Romulus like a sniper hit and would have taken out everything else directly in its path if Spock hadn't stopped it.
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Old July 15 2014, 02:15 AM   #40
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

AirCommodore wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Pretty sure they show the Hobus shockwave obliterating Romulus.
It must have been a slow motion camera. If that shockwave was in real time, then it is clearly traveling a tiny fraction of the speed of light. Which means it should have taken many, many years to reach Romulus, and millions of years to slowly propagate through the Galaxy. That would have given them lots and lots of time to react to it.

In any case the idea that you could "suck back" a shockwave and all the stellar matter spread from light years behind it is as absurd as the rest of the plot of ST '09.
So then it is "Star Trek", as scientific absurdity is on tap for the vast majority of the franchises episodes/movies.
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Old July 15 2014, 03:38 AM   #41
AirCommodore
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

BillJ wrote: View Post
AirCommodore wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Pretty sure they show the Hobus shockwave obliterating Romulus.
It must have been a slow motion camera. If that shockwave was in real time, then it is clearly traveling a tiny fraction of the speed of light. Which means it should have taken many, many years to reach Romulus, and millions of years to slowly propagate through the Galaxy. That would have given them lots and lots of time to react to it.

In any case the idea that you could "suck back" a shockwave and all the stellar matter spread from light years behind it is as absurd as the rest of the plot of ST '09.
So then it is "Star Trek", as scientific absurdity is on tap for the vast majority of the franchises episodes/movies.
Not at all. Very few episodes involve anything as ludicrous and totally unnecessary as the infamous Warp Speed Supernova or "sucking back" shockwaves from light years away.

It is science FICTION, not science, so a fair amount of wanking is allowed, and necessary. But the science part of scifi counts for SOMETHING. And for me, the silliness of supernovas that travel at Warp Speed falls in that area of superfluous, unnecessary wankitude.
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Old July 15 2014, 03:49 AM   #42
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Ovation wrote: View Post
chrinFinity wrote: View Post
Yes but it affects what happens after 2387 in the real universe, so it's important.
Well, each universe is as "real" as the other (as in neither one is real), so I'm not sure what your point is here.
You beat me to the punch. No version of Star Trek is more "real" than any other. There was the previous version, now there's a new version, and someday there will be other versions. It's as simple as that.

And, honestly, this whole argument strikes me as yet another rather strained attempt to somehow invalidate or dismiss the new movies. The phrase "grasping at straws" comes to mind.

Romulus is toast, and so is Vulcan. At least until they reboot the franchise again.
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Old July 15 2014, 04:13 AM   #43
Ithekro
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

There is precedent for a faster than light shockwave from a planetary explosion in the appearance of Praxis exploding in Star Trek VI hitting US Excelsior across the border in Federation space.

So here he have what is later considered to be an artificially tampered with star that goes supernova that also has a faster than like shockwave. One would guess this is a subspace shockwave, but something is powering enough that it will destroy things in its path.

An note...the black hole was able to hold USS Enterprise even after she goes to warp. Thus it can suck thing going faster than light. Would that mean it could suck in a subspace shockwave? Could It do this without sucking in anything beyond many light years away, or does the red matter black hole simply cut out the center that is somehow empowering the deadly faster than light wave of destruction?

Why didn't the black hole such in the Sol system? Hopefully because it was too busy sucking in Nero and Enterprise's warp core(s) stopped it.
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Old July 15 2014, 05:14 AM   #44
AirCommodore
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
There is precedent for a faster than light shockwave from a planetary explosion in the appearance of Praxis exploding in Star Trek VI hitting US Excelsior across the border in Federation space.

So here he have what is later considered to be an artificially tampered with star that goes supernova that also has a faster than like shockwave. One would guess this is a subspace shockwave, but something is powering enough that it will destroy things in its path.

An note...the black hole was able to hold USS Enterprise even after she goes to warp. Thus it can suck thing going faster than light. Would that mean it could suck in a subspace shockwave? Could It do this without sucking in anything beyond many light years away, or does the red matter black hole simply cut out the center that is somehow empowering the deadly faster than light wave of destruction?

Why didn't the black hole such in the Sol system? Hopefully because it was too busy sucking in Nero and Enterprise's warp core(s) stopped it.
Speaking of precedent, I would have thought they would have used the trilithium warhead to destroy the Romulan star directly. An alien force did it, but simulates Starfleet radio traffic to make the Federation seem responsible. That would have been interesting.

But if you stay with the time travel idea, you could say that the wreckage of the Jellyfish and the Narada actually went somewhere. Further in the past? Potential follow up ideas there.
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Old July 15 2014, 05:29 AM   #45
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Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

AirCommodore wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
AirCommodore wrote: View Post

It must have been a slow motion camera. If that shockwave was in real time, then it is clearly traveling a tiny fraction of the speed of light. Which means it should have taken many, many years to reach Romulus, and millions of years to slowly propagate through the Galaxy. That would have given them lots and lots of time to react to it.

In any case the idea that you could "suck back" a shockwave and all the stellar matter spread from light years behind it is as absurd as the rest of the plot of ST '09.
So then it is "Star Trek", as scientific absurdity is on tap for the vast majority of the franchises episodes/movies.
Not at all. Very few episodes involve anything as ludicrous and totally unnecessary as the infamous Warp Speed Supernova or "sucking back" shockwaves from light years away.

It is science FICTION, not science, so a fair amount of wanking is allowed, and necessary. But the science part of scifi counts for SOMETHING. And for me, the silliness of supernovas that travel at Warp Speed falls in that area of superfluous, unnecessary wankitude.
As I understand it, and I'm not a big reader or viewer of it, serious science fiction tries to play mostly within the real laws of physics, maybe stretching some of them to the limits of what may be possible. It may also allow itself one or two scientific conceits. It also tries to be consistent within the universe it created.

"Star Trek" in all its forms going back to TOS is at best science fantasy, which is a fine genre of its own. It doesn't necessarily try to stay consistent, and bends, breaks, or ignores so many laws of physics that it essentially lives by its own laws. It allows faster-than-light space travel, instantaneous communication across light years, artificial gravity, perfect universal translation, Genesis, and teleportation among other things. Trek has also always lived by one important law of its physics: when in question, do whatever the plot requires.

Of all the "wankitude" in Trek, Genesis in TWOK always took the cake for me. After that, anything is believable.
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