RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,668
Posts: 5,429,421
Members: 24,821
Currently online: 402
Newest member: SB118_Laxyn


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 10 2014, 05:00 PM   #1
chrinFinity
Commander
 
chrinFinity's Avatar
 
Location: Scmocation
Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Good afternoon,

It's been a while since I saw Star Trek 2009, but I was turning all the various problems over in my head, and keep coming back to Nero's motivation to have revenge on Vulcan, hatred of Spock, and the destruction of Romulus.

My question for you who may remember all the details of the film more completely than I do, is there any room for interpretation in the dialogue to allow for the possibility that perhaps the Hobus supernova itself was not physically responsible for the actual destruction of the planet Romulus?

Could the development or deployment of Red Matter, by Vulcan / the Federation, or their choice to use it on Hobus in the way they did or at the time they did, have had secondary (rather than directly physical) destructive impact on Romulus.

If perhaps, there were two simultaneous crises requiring Red Matter, but only so much to go around, and Spock's logic was responsible for the choice "not to save" Romulus, because for instance the threat at Hobus affected more worlds ("needs of the many," etc.). Or alternatively, that Spock's two decades of Unification activism may have had a political impact on Romulus that left them weakened or unprepared (e.g. militarily) to address some secondary impact of the Hobus event. Could Romulus's society have collapsed, or some sort of political revolution have occurred that was in some way catalyzed or tied into the Hobus event (thus, "destroying" the Romulus that Nero knew).

What I'm getting at here is to determine if it is absolutely, positively, established in canon beyond any doubt or room for interpretation, that the planet Romulus was physically destroyed and exploded / burned up, etc, or is there any breathing room for a possible alternative interpretation of the story relayed by Spock and Nero in on-screen dialogue regarding the catastrophic events of 2387?

I'd like to get the thoughts of TrekBBS people on this issue, and then re-watch the movie myself.

And FYI, anyone who mentions things we saw in flashback as evidence is going to be reminded that Delta Vega is about a kilometre away from Vulcan in Spock's imagination.
__________________
i hate everything
chrinFinity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 05:09 PM   #2
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Pretty sure they show the Hobus shockwave obliterating Romulus.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 05:26 PM   #3
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Spock Prime said the star went supernova before he could release the red matter, and he was too late to save Romulus. As BillJ said, it is shown being obliterated in Spock's flashback. Spock Prime released the red matter anyway to prevent any further destruction since so many other planets were threatened.

There's no indication that Romulus was destroyed by a misapplication or other problem with the red matter. The supernova got it.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 05:28 PM   #4
chrinFinity
Commander
 
chrinFinity's Avatar
 
Location: Scmocation
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pretty sure they show the Hobus shockwave obliterating Romulus.
Yes but that was in a Flashback during the retelling. That could still be metaphoric, especially if Spock's guilt or Nero's obsession directly links Hobus with harm to Romulus in their minds.

Flashbacks in Star Trek canon have been repeatedly and consistently depicted as being subjective and fallible to perception, and have been generally shown to be from the perspective of either the speaker or the listener in a retelling (TNG: "A Matter of Perspective," DS9: "Rules of Engagement," TNG: "Clues", STV The Final Frontier, VOY: "Ex Post Facto," DS9: "Things Past," TNG: "Schisms", VOY: "Flashback").
__________________
i hate everything
chrinFinity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 05:36 PM   #5
Melakon
Vice Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Since all we know of the event comes from only Spock and Nero, dialogue from their lips is just as unreliable as the flashbacks.
__________________
Curly: If at first you don't succeed, keep on suckin' til you do succeed.
--Movie Maniacs (1936)
Melakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 05:37 PM   #6
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Pretty sure they show the Hobus shockwave obliterating Romulus.
Yes but that was in a Flashback during the retelling. That could still be metaphoric, especially if Spock's guilt or Nero's obsession directly links Hobus with harm to Romulus in their minds.
I don't think there's anything in the movie that points to Spock's retelling as being inaccurate. While not canon, the comic prequel Countdown shows a period of time between the destruction of Romulus and the detonation of the Red Matter and Spock/Nero being sucked into the past.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 05:49 PM   #7
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Pretty sure they show the Hobus shockwave obliterating Romulus.
Yes but that was in a Flashback during the retelling. That could still be metaphoric, especially if Spock's guilt or Nero's obsession directly links Hobus with harm to Romulus in their minds.

Flashbacks in Star Trek canon have been repeatedly and consistently depicted as being subjective and fallible to perception, and have been generally shown to be from the perspective of either the speaker or the listener in a retelling (TNG: "A Matter of Perspective," DS9: "Rules of Engagement," TNG: "Clues", STV The Final Frontier, VOY: "Ex Post Facto," DS9: "Things Past," TNG: "Schisms", VOY: "Flashback").
Most technically, there's nothing to prove one way or the other if the mind meld is a metaphor created by Spock Prime or a hallucination for some reason. However, I don't know why Spock Prime would hallucinate the destruction of Romulus. Nero saw it happen, too. So if it didn't really happen, then both hallucinated. That seems very unlikely, and any explanation that it is would be pure rationalization. So, if someone feels better wanting to think it didn't happen and Spock Prime and Nero are wrong for some reason, then go for it. Seems far-fetched, but it doesn't really affect the story.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 05:55 PM   #8
chrinFinity
Commander
 
chrinFinity's Avatar
 
Location: Scmocation
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Yes but it affects what happens after 2387 in the real universe, so it's important.
__________________
i hate everything
chrinFinity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 06:38 PM   #9
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Pretty sure they show the Hobus shockwave obliterating Romulus.
Yes but that was in a Flashback during the retelling. That could still be metaphoric, especially if Spock's guilt or Nero's obsession directly links Hobus with harm to Romulus in their minds.

Flashbacks in Star Trek canon have been repeatedly and consistently depicted as being subjective and fallible to perception, and have been generally shown to be from the perspective of either the speaker or the listener in a retelling (TNG: "A Matter of Perspective," DS9: "Rules of Engagement," TNG: "Clues", STV The Final Frontier, VOY: "Ex Post Facto," DS9: "Things Past," TNG: "Schisms", VOY: "Flashback").
Spock specifically stated that Romulus blew up before he could deploy the Red Matter. That's a pretty big detail to "remember wrong". He would've had to have been deliberately lying. To me, that proves, without a doubt Hobus did it, not, the Red Matter going wrong.
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 06:50 PM   #10
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
Yes but it affects what happens after 2387 in the real universe, so it's important.
Well, each universe is as "real" as the other (as in neither one is real), so I'm not sure what your point is here.
Ovation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 06:57 PM   #11
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Ovation wrote: View Post
chrinFinity wrote: View Post
Yes but it affects what happens after 2387 in the real universe, so it's important.
Well, each universe is as "real" as the other (as in neither one is real), so I'm not sure what your point is here.
It's also very unlikely we'll ever see that other universe on screen, again, so it really isn't that important. If it's important for fan fiction or comics still set in that universe, then they may want to take their cue from the comic prequel, where it's quite clear Romulus was destroyed.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 08:14 PM   #12
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Spock's recollection shows Romulas being destroyed, wouldn't Spock have traveled straight from Vulcan to Hobus?


Last edited by T'Girl; July 10 2014 at 11:56 PM.
T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2014, 09:20 PM   #13
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
Yes but it affects what happens after 2387 in the real universe, so it's important.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11 2014, 02:28 AM   #14
The Wormhole
Admiral
 
The Wormhole's Avatar
 
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

Nero's backstory is that he was originally a decent working class stiff who was traumatized by witnessing the destruction of Romulus and as a result, he's taking his anger and grief out on the galaxy by becoming an Evil Villain and blowing up worlds, so that others can feel his pain. In order for this to make any kind of sense, he would actually have had to see Romulus blow up, ergo it did.
__________________
"Internet message boards aren't as funny today as they were ten years ago. I've stopped reading new posts." -The Simpsons 20th anniversary special.
The Wormhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11 2014, 03:05 AM   #15
TorontoTrekker
Vice Admiral
 
TorontoTrekker's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Could the Hobus destruction of Romulus have been metaphorical?

I haven't watched the movie in a while, so I may be misremembering - but we only see Romulus destroyed with our own eyes through the flashback narrated by Nero. He may have said something to the effect of "I saw it happen" - as I said, it's been a while and I don't remember his exact words - but it could also have been what he was visualizing in his mind's eye as he related what had happened.

It's much more likely that what happened was similar to what happened to Qo'nos in TUC - its environment was damaged or destroyed by a gamma-ray burst (GRB) from the supernova, rendering it uninhabitable and, for all intents and purposes, destroyed. A GRB is certainly powerful enough - one going off within a thousand light years of Earth would destroy us, if it happened to be pointing in our direction. (I'm not sure if GRBs cause actual physical destruction, though, of if they would just blow away our atmosphere.)

Though given the distances involved in interstellar space, it should have taken a few years for a GRB to reach Romulus, even if it was as close to Romulus as we are to Alpha Centauri - but accurate physics hasn't been a hallmark of the Abramsverse (Trek in general plays fast and loose with the laws of physics at times, but I happen to think that Abrams plays even faster and looser). It's not like in TUC, where Praxis was identified as "a Klingon moon" - but it was never explicitly stated whether or not it was a moon of Qo'nos (which it would pretty much have to be, for its explosion to have that effect on the planet), just in the same system, or somewhere within the Empire.

A rewatch to listen to Nero's exact words should clear things up, though.
TorontoTrekker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:38 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.