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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old July 9 2014, 04:18 PM   #16
Robert Comsol
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

Yes, all these retcon maneuvers trying to finally turn the assumptions and the myth into canon (you forgot the dedication plaque of the Defiant from "In A Mirror, Darkly").

The Naked Now

File cover of James T. Kirk’s career shows the last Enterprise he served on, the NCC-1701-A, known from Scotty’s blueprint ST VI:TUC to have been a “Constitution Class” Starship. Picard reacts to the graphic he sees on the screen and correctly identifies it!



Relics

I simply refer to the parallel discussion here. Obviously the recreation of a Constitution Class bridge, but it doesn’t match the actual TOS bridge in many details, most notably the rail configuration behind the command chair.

Trials and Tribble-ations

This one is just gorgeous. Even Sisko assumes the TOS Enterprise to be a Constitution Class vessel (chronological deck numbering from the top to the keel according to FJ’s erroneous assumption) which creates a hilarious moment for Dr. Bashir and O’Brien, momentarily being trapped in a turbo lift because the deck they try to reach doesn’t exist on the TOS Enterprise.

Statements of our 24th Century protagonists regarding characters and vehicles about the 23rd Century can and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Heck, even O'Brien doesn't know what Captain Kirk looked like.

Wait a minute, isn't that the same discussion we had a couple of months ago?

Dennis wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In my philosophy wisdom contains a thing called “respect”.
There are different and better definitions of "respect" than "slavish deference."
That's an interesting topic for a philosophical debate. I prefer slavish deference to original (and unchanged) intentions of the creators over slavish deference to assumptions based on popular belief.

I don't mind being a slave to the original creators because they knew better than me (and those that came after them), but I mind being a slave to those that thought they'd knew better than the original creators.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; July 9 2014 at 04:32 PM.
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Old July 9 2014, 04:26 PM   #17
BillJ
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

File cover of James T. Kirk’s career shows the last Enterprise he served on, the NCC-1701-A, known from Scotty’s blueprint ST VI:TUC to have been a “Constitution Class” Starship.
I'm 100% sure the writer had no clue what graphic was going to be used when they wrote that line. So the intent is clearly that Kirk's ship, "USS Enterprise", when battling the PSI2000 virus was a Constitution class starship.

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Old July 9 2014, 04:40 PM   #18
starburst
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

Wingsley wrote: View Post
In STAR TREK III - THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK, the Klingon Bird of Prey crew recognized the Enterprise as a "Federation battlecruiser".
I wouldn't take what the Klingons said literally, the Enterprise and similar match their Battlecruisers in size and capability so they think of them as one and the same.

NCC-1701 is a Heavy Cruiser of the Constitution Class, those are the terms most commonly seen or heard on screen post TOS where the writers constantly changed their terminology from episode to episode such as UESPA/Starfleet and Vulcan/Vulcanian.
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Old July 9 2014, 05:01 PM   #19
Robert Comsol
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

According to the small print of the viewscreen schematic in "The Enterprise Incident" (reproduced in The Making of Star Trek) NCC-1701 is a "Space Cruiser".

Bob

P.S.
Post-TOS we saw an "Enterprise Class" label on the bridge simulator at the beginning of ST II:TWOK
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Old July 9 2014, 05:06 PM   #20
Robert Comsol
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm 100% sure the writer had no clue what graphic was going to be used when they wrote that line. So the intent is clearly that Kirk's ship, "USS Enterprise", when battling the PSI2000 virus was a Constitution class starship.
And I'm 100% sure that by the time of "The Naked Now" there were plenty of TOS Enterprise schematics around they could have easily used for the screen graphic.

Bob
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Old July 9 2014, 05:38 PM   #21
Ithekro
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

1987 and Mac computers...no, easier to use the existing files from the Star Trek IV graphics than pay to make new ones.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:13 PM   #22
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

I don't mind being a slave to the original creators because they knew better than me (and those that came after them), but I mind being a slave to those that thought they'd knew better than the original creators.
Fer Christ sake... these aren't religious texts we're talking about here. It's a TV series. "Constitution class" began seeping into the public consciousness in the 70's. I've been a fan since I was four-years old (1975) and the Enterprise had always been "Constitution class" to me.

If Gene Roddenberry had no issues with the Enterprise being "Constitution class", why should I?
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Old July 9 2014, 06:16 PM   #23
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

I don't mind being a slave to the original creators...
Well, that's one difference to begin with: I mind being a slave, particularly to trivial nonsense; I'd rather think things through (if a subject seems to merit any consideration at all. This subject is, obviously, a timeworn tempest in a teacup that will lead to no definitive answer, ever).
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Old July 9 2014, 06:23 PM   #24
Wingsley
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

Wow. A lively discussion in my absence.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:49 PM   #25
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

As far a the type designation goes, there's not much to go on in TOS. But "heavy cruiser" appeals to me, because it implies there is also a "light cruiser," which seems like a good fit for Reliant in TWOK.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:53 PM   #26
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

^ I agree.


And even if it wasn't Jeffries original intention, I think Constitution class is a good class name for the Enterprise.

I also like the Enterprise class for what the ships became from TMP on, assuming they would be building new heavy cruisers that way instead of the older Constitution class style.

Not to stir up an even bigger hornet's nest, but I used to like to think maybe the Constellation was an older type of heavy cruiser upgraded to Constitution class after a refit.
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Old July 9 2014, 07:13 PM   #27
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

In the end, for better or worse, justified or not, Constitution-class ended up winning the Star Trek day for the "class of starship to which the Enterprise belongs."

(That "class of starship to which the Enterprise belongs" always strikes me as an odd sentence structure; can't we just concur that "Enterprise-class" might be used (especially in the case of TMoST) in the context of "the class of starship to which the Enterprise belongs regardless of the actual class vessel's name" without also stipulating that the actual class name is Enterprise? I think Enterprise-class is used not as a proper noun but as a simple descriptive possessive noun: Enterprise-class equals Enterprise's class.)


J.T.B. wrote: View Post
As far a the type designation goes, there's not much to go on in TOS. But "heavy cruiser" appeals to me, because it implies there is also a "light cruiser," which seems like a good fit for Reliant in TWOK.
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Old July 9 2014, 07:43 PM   #28
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

There has been, from time to time, instances where a fictional vessel will be called by a class name, and yet it is the first of its class, without there being a ship with the actual class name, in existence.

This can sometime be justified as a class name that it is generally called (Such as calling a group of ships that are all named after admirals the Admiralty-class even though the class is officially the Fischer-class). But I Starfleet, one would expect there to be a USS Galaxy, a USS Ambassador, a USS Excelsior, and the USS Constitution.

However we get the NX-class, which, after its refit, is renamed the Columbia-class after the first ship lost of the NX-class, rather than the Enterprise.


We had for years multiple names for the class that USS Reliant belonged, and that subclasses from refits would take the name of the first ship of that refit. This was practiced sometimes by navies, but usually the base class would still be the overall name, with the newer subclass used only to tell the variants apart. By the time there are all retired, they are all listed as the parent class of ship.

Other times there are two classes of ship that are basically the same, save for minor differences in structure or engineering. They more or less look and act the same, but are two totally different classes. This sometimes makes for a lot of two ship classes in a sea of ship classes, rather than large packs of a dozen or more ships in a class. Or the French practice of building a lot of one off ships that were similar to each other, but still different.
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Old July 10 2014, 08:57 AM   #29
Robert Comsol
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

Dennis wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I don't mind being a slave to the original creators...
Well, that's one difference to begin with: I mind being a slave, particularly to trivial nonsense; I'd rather think things through (if a subject seems to merit any consideration at all. This subject is, obviously, a timeworn tempest in a teacup that will lead to no definitive answer, ever).
You wanted to spin "respect" into "slavish deference" and I just played along with your figure of speech.

While the subject is admittedly trivial (as it has no impact on characters or story-telling), it's the mental gymnastics behind it and our differences in methodology to arrive at possible conclusions or rationalizations that apparently appeals to a lot of people here at the BBS. Certainly you have realized that by now.

The one thing I can't stand - this should have become obvious after two years - is this suspicion that runs through several threads that the original creators "didn't know what they were doing".

On the contrary, as I've tried to point out, there is often no justification for such claims, but it's the fans that didn't look at options or alternate explanations.

My favorite example is the deck numbering of the TOS Enterprise (I mentioned earlier), in particular the references to Decks 2, 13 and 14.
Some fans here expressed that there's not possibly enough space in the dorsal for Decks 13 and 14 to fit in there, "the creators didn't know what they were doing".

This is the result of "slavish deference" to the Constitution Class blueprints of Franz Joseph, a conjectural work of a man who was never involved in the actual TOS production, who numbered the decks without interruption from the top bridge to the bottom keel.

All the Making of Star Trek mentions is that the engineering hull has 16 decks. Once we start counting the engineering decks from the top of the dorsal to the keel (the exterior windows align nicely to 16 decks) you'll have Engineering Decks 2, 13 and 14 with the distance (Deck 2) and the space (Decks 13 and 14) to match the actual footage.
Obviously, the creators knew exactly what they were doing, but apparently it requires some minimal amount of respect and imagination to figure out what could have been on their minds.

To cut a long story short: While the subject may be trivial, it's eventually about showing some respect to the original creators and artists. If we practise our hobby at the expense of others (and especially those who can no longer comment), then there is something inherently wrong with our hobby.

Bob
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Old July 10 2014, 09:55 AM   #30
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Re: Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

Connie Francis class.
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