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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old July 10 2014, 10:18 PM   #31
JirinPanthosa
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

Gowron DID consider Worf a traitor after he refused to join in the invasion of Cardassia. If Worf served for the Cardassian army or the Romulan army he would have been labeled a traitor. But the Federation were their allies, and they raised him. In the brief period they weren't allies, things went down exactly like you said, he was labeled a traitor. They didn't even consider Worf a Klingon until he was drawn into Klingon politics in Sins of the Father, which is mostly why they gave him a pass.

I do think it's insightful when you say it's easy to grandstand about Klingon honor when you're living in the Federation. That's exactly what Ezri called him on toward the end, pointing out the hypocrisy of Klingon honor and forcing him to commit once and for all. But I don't see that as a directive that he must live among Klingons to live up to his word. Worf's always cared first and foremost about his personal code, and his personal code told him to continue to serve in Starfleet. And that decision four years later cost him his entire family wealth.
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Old July 10 2014, 11:35 PM   #32
MacLeod
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

And as Worf pointed out, when Gowron said he would have nothing, he would still have his 'honour'
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Old July 11 2014, 04:24 AM   #33
the praetor
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

Ezri was insightful and spot on about Worf regarding this matter.

Worf was essentially a carpetbagger during the “Redemption” Klingon civil war. He jumped into Klingon internal affairs for self serving purposes. After he got what he wanted from of his meddling, he bailed out, back to the safety and comfort of the Federation. If that’s honor for him, so be it.

It seemed to me that Worf’s “people” needed him more than Starfleet did, considering the sad state of the empire as depicted in “Redemption”. But I guess Worf preferred the safe comfortable life in the Federation.

I don’t doubt that the ST writers of both TNG and ST6 were influenced by the events of the day. The Cold War was ending. As Ithekro wrote, the Klingons were analogous to the Soviets; the Feds were the US. It was suppose to be all peace and love after the Soviet Union disintergrated, so it was to be with the Feds and the Klingons.

About the Soviet Union, sure it was a multi ethnic empire. But that didn’t mean racial attitudes among the dominant Russian people towards the other ethnicities was love and tolerance. The totalitarian government may have suppressed any negative racial impulses at the time. Check out the current Russian attitudes about other ethnicities.

About the matter of Klingon society changing, I wrote about that in a different thread. I am going to copy my comments from there to this thread for anyone who may interested. Thank you for indulging me, if you so choose.

I noticed that in that thread MacLeod rebutted my comments. I can’t seem to shake you off.
 
 
 
 
 
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Old July 11 2014, 04:31 AM   #34
the praetor
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

As for a soceity changing, we are talking around a century from the end of TOS to the start of TNG, soceities can change over that time period. Besides even as early as season one of TOS "Errand of Mercy" we are told that one day the UFP and KE will become fast friends.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]AYELBORNE: Oh, eventually you will have peace, but only after millions of people have died. It is true that in the future, you and the Klingons will become fast friends. You will work together.[/SIZE][/FONT]
So in TNG we are simply seeing that come true. If we look back at Empires in Earth's history that stood for centuries were they the same culturally at the start as they were at the end?
I want to respond to the above comments. I am too lazy to write new comments, which would probably be identical to what I previously wrote anyway.

The following is what I wrote in a different thread about the oddity of Klingon societal change as depicted in TNG:

I could understand the transformation from a tv perspective.
I guess the TNG writers point of view was this: Federation, good; Federation can only be allied with good; therefore if Federation is to be allied with the Klingons, the Klingons must also be good.

Perhaps the writers didn’t think the viewers were sophisticated enough to understand that a “good” nation can ally itself with a thuggish regime for strategic reasons. For example in the real world, the US and USSR fought on the same side during WWII.

Putting that aside, the transformation of Klingon society didn’t make sense imo.

Klingon militarism during TOS was about conquest and brutality. During TNG, Klingon militarism was now merely about a code of honor, a way of life. They went from being barbaric to being honorable, albeit a bit uncivilized by Fed standards, but nevertheless lovable allies. How could that be?

I assumed that imperialism and barbarism were deeply ingrained in the Klingon psyche. Wolf, even though he was raised by humans and thus immersed in human culture, displayed militaristic and barbaric tendencies. Why was that?

Wolf's behavior led me to believe that those tendencies were not merely cultural but had a biological basis, which makes a wholesale change within the Klingon society that much more unlikely.

Also, the Klingons were not defeated in a Klingon/Fed war and then occupied by the Federation. During an occupation, the conqueror could impose changes to a society. But that did not happen to the Klingons, as far as I know.

It just didn’t make sense to me that the Klingons went from being a proud imperialistic and brutal people to a society that likes to talk big about a warrior ethos but which acted sheepishly.

As a fan of ST, I didn’t like how the writers transformed the Klingons. Even from an entertainment perspective, I didn’t find it enjoyable to watch.
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Old July 11 2014, 04:38 AM   #35
the praetor
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

This is my second post from that thread on the same matter:

I realize that societies can change over time.

What was the impetus that caused such a dramatic transformation of Klingon society?

There was no outside force, as far as I know, that imposed change on the Klingons. Barbarism, militarism, and imperialism were deeply rooted in Klingon culture and psyche, and perhaps, in their biology as well.

To me, it just seemed too dramatic and unrealistic for such a change to have happened, especially if there was a biological imperative for the Klingons to be barbaric.

When the ST writers conceived of the Klingons back whenever, I assume they created the Klingons to be analogous to the Soviets.

If you look at Russia today, it's seems to be reverting back to what it was during the Soviet (minus the communist ideology) and czarist times; that is, it is becoming once again imperialistic, anti-democratic, and anti-Western. And it is still very corrupt. And this is happening only about a generation removed from the collapse of the USSR.

I guess there really was not a fundamental reformation that took place there after the collapse.

I think the Soviet/Russia-Klingon analogy is apt in so many ways.

I realize that the Klingons and the Feds made peace during the time of The Undiscovered Country. Is that when the transformation began? Why?

How could a piece of paper, or whatever they used for the treaty, so dramatically change a society? It's unrealistic. Just look at what's happening in today's real world with Russia.

In addition, the Klingons didn't look to the Federation for inspiration. They were fiercely proud of their own culture and history. The Klingons didn't want to be like the Federation. Why would they change?

What caused the Klingon society to so dramatically change (other than the TNG writers making the change)? Is there something in ST canon that logically explains it?


--If you have read these two long pieces of, whatever you want to call it, you are truly an honorable person.
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Old July 11 2014, 07:04 AM   #36
MacLeod
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

How about Praxis exploding causing massive enviromental damge to the Qo'nos the Klingon's homeworld? So massive that it would be uninhabitable in fifty or so years.

TUC also showed two sides one a progressive side that was open to change and the other a more traditional side what to keep more towars the status quo. The progressive side seemed to have won out. Sure in Russia today, some people might want to harken back to what they percieve as the good old days, but the actions of a government any government aren't always fully representive of the wishes of the people. Do people of a certain generation thing back and think things where better when so and so was Head of Government? You could pssoible make a case that Russia is still a fledgling democracy compared against some nations.

Change doesn't have to come about because of an external force but can come from internal forces.
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Old July 11 2014, 07:15 AM   #37
Ithekro
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

But what if your theory is incorrect and the way the Klingons acted during TOS was the passing phase? That prior to that they were more like the Klingons of later eras that were more interested in honor? The militarism seem in Kirk's era is more a response to the implied threat of the expanding Federation and the change was after contact with the humans back in Archer's time. The Klingons feel threatened and start expanding in a more imperialistic manner and in a brutal fashion.

Instead of the Russian analogy, how about Japan? Imperial, militaristic Japan of the 1930s and 1940s was a result of pressures and the perceived threat from the Western powers and then need for resources to maintain that new imperialism. However Japan was not always like that, nor are they like that now. They did get defeated and suffered and occupation, but they are still Japanese.

The Klingons didn't change as much as the Japanese did. But if the analogy is similar, than after Khitomer, the threat of the Federation became less of a threat, and by the 2340s, the alliance made the threat almost gone, thus the Klingon imperialist and brutal nature from before reduces as the Klingons don't need it anymore. They go back to how they were before encountering the Humans.
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Old July 11 2014, 09:25 AM   #38
grendelsbayne
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

the praetor wrote: View Post
You keep saying this, but I, for one, don't see it. What was so extraordinarily 'xenophobic' about the Empire?
I have seen the TOS episodes which had a Klingon storyline.
 
Klingons were portrayed as xenophobic barbarians in the TOS episodes that I saw. I remember the eps “Day of the Dove”, “Errand of Mercy”, and “Trouble with Tribbles” among others.

Klingon society was homogenous. They conquered, brutalized and subjugated non Klingon worlds and peoples. They had a superiority and, at the same time, a sort of victim complex regarding their own species.

Unfortunately, the nature of the Klingons was dramatically altered from what it was during the TOS era to what we saw through TNG times.

The transformation didn't make sense, imo.

Klingon militarism during TOS was about conquest, imperialism and brutality. During TNG, Klingon militarism was now merely about a code of honor, a way of life. They went from being barbaric to being honorable, albeit a bit uncivilized by Fed standards, but nevertheless lovable allies of the Fed.
 
This was the doing of the TNG writers. The writers de-fanged the Klingons to make them more agreeable to the viewers as allies of the Feds.

It was totally contrived to fit the dogma that the writers wanted to maintain of the kumbaya relationship between the Feds and the Klingons that started with “The Undiscovered Country”.

Imo, the TNG writers didn’t think the viewers were sophisticated enough to understand that a democracy could be allied with a brutal xenophobic dictatorship. In the real world, it happens and it has happened. An example is the US alliance with the Soviets during WWII. Currently, the US is allied with the closed xenophobic country of Saudi Arabia.

So, which is the real Klingons?

Having said that, I haven't seen any indication that the TNG Klingons aren't still a homogenous xenophobic society.

I know, the Klingon High Council let a foreigner, Picard, pick their leader and interfere in their internal affairs in so many other ways. It didn't make any sense that a proud people like the Klingons voluntarily begged an alien foreigner to pick their next leader and to continuously interfere in their internal affairs. But I suppose, if a viewer is to suspend disbelief to the max, then the viewer can see that the Klingons are no longer xenophobic.
It's been a long time since I've seen tos, but while I remember the barbarism and Militarism, I also remember the Klingons negotiating with neutral peoples to get them to join/side with the empire (this was, iirc, the motive behind sabotaging the Fed. grain stores in the Trouble with Tribbles, so that that world would choose the Klingons instead of the Feds; I remember another ep the name of which I don't recall in which the Klingons seemed to be making a weapons deal with the locals) - therefore, even in TOS they weren't Xenophobic. Brutal, yes. Imperialistic, yes. Arrogant, yes. (and all three of those qualities were still seen in later shows, just somewhat less in the forefront)

None of these things automatically mandates that they *must* be xenophobic.
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Old July 11 2014, 12:12 PM   #39
Armored Saint
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

You're talking about Friday's Child and A Private Little War. In both case, the Klingons are manipulative, but yes they don't are especially xenophobic.
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Old July 18 2014, 06:58 PM   #40
the praetor
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

In "The Search for Spock" and "The Voyage Home", the Klingons were depicted as quite paranoid and displayed a strong sense of xenophobia.

Kruge, the Klingon captain and the villain of ST3, accused Kirk and the Feds of attempting to kill off the Klingon species. Kruge denounced Kirk for creating the Genesis "torpedo". He saw the Genesis "torpedo" as the weapon the Federation was going to use to annihilate the Klingon people. He was paranoid, and his paranoia was probably merely reflective of Klingon society.

In TVH, the Klingon ambassador, speaking before the Federation Council, also accused the Federation of creating the Genesis weapon as the means to commit genocide against the Klingon people. I take it that the ambassador's sentiments reflected the Klingon people's attitudes. The Klingons apparently had a siege mentality. They were quite paranoid and xenophobic of alien outsiders out to get them.

In ST:TMP, when the Klingons encountered Vger, they didn't try to open a dialogue with Vger. They went on the attack. That was their way. They don't take kindly to alien outsiders.

From what I remember from the TOS episode "Day of the Dove", the Klingons in that ep also felt that the Feds were encroaching on Klingon space and were out to destroy their people. Xenophobia seemed to be part of the Klingon mind set.

The Klingons didn't change as much as the Japanese did. But if the analogy is similar, than after Khitomer, the threat of the Federation became less of a threat, and by the 2340s, the alliance made the threat almost gone, thus the Klingon imperialist and brutal nature from before reduces as the Klingons don't need it anymore. They go back to how they were before encountering the Humans.
Was there something in ST canon that would explain such a dramatic transformation of Klingon society?

I thought the Klingons also had other significant enemies and faced threats from the likes of the Romulans, Cardassians, the Dominion and other powers that existed in their quadrant of space.

The Klingon-Fed front may have become peaceful, but that still wouldn't explain the dramatic transformation.

Even in TNG times, the Klingons continued to display a pre-disposed aggressive nature and an enthusiasm for battle and warfare. It seemed so contradictory that the Klingons would be so passive, submissive and pathetic in their relations with the Feds, Romulans, etc. It goes against their nature as it was portrayed in the shows.
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Old July 18 2014, 07:37 PM   #41
BillJ
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

the praetor wrote: View Post

Kruge, the Klingon captain and the villain of ST3, accused Kirk and the Feds of attempting to kill off the Klingon species. Kruge denounced Kirk for creating the Genesis "torpedo". He saw the Genesis "torpedo" as the weapon the Federation was going to use to annihilate the Klingon people. He was paranoid, and his paranoia was probably merely reflective of Klingon society.
I don't think so...

KRUGE: We are going to this planet. Even as our emissaries negotiate for peace with the Federation, we will act for the preservation of our race! We will seize the secret of this weapon. The secret of ultimate power!
Kruge is using "preservation" as a justification for his actions. But in the very same dialogue shows what his real ambition is.

In TVH, the Klingon ambassador, speaking before the Federation Council, also accused the Federation of creating the Genesis weapon as the means to commit genocide against the Klingon people. I take it that the ambassador's sentiments reflected the Klingon people's attitudes. The Klingons apparently had a siege mentality. They were quite paranoid and xenophobic of alien outsiders out to get them.
This is just political posturing. The Klingon ambassador was more worried about getting Kirk extradited than the Genesis Device. He doesn't demand any information on Genesis. He doesn't demand any information on the "secret base". They wanted Kirk.

I don't think that either exchange proves anything about the general Klingon mindset about outsiders.
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Old July 18 2014, 08:10 PM   #42
Ithekro
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

The Klingons never seem to view the Romulans or Cardassians as a threat to their empire. They are enemies for sure, but the Klingons never seem to present them as the threat the Federation was during their "Cold War" era days.

The Dominion is a threat and the Klingons react to it in ways similar to how they reacted to the Federation, but this time the Federation is there with them to try to keep them pointed at the Dominion. Remember that the Dominion was not even known to exist by the Klingon Empire until 2370 (when everyone else on the Bajoran side the Wormhole found out). That's nearly 80 years after Praxis exploded.
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Old July 18 2014, 08:19 PM   #43
MacLeod
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

the praetor wrote: View Post

The Klingon-Fed front may have become peaceful, but that still wouldn't explain the dramatic transformation.

Even in TNG times, the Klingons continued to display a pre-disposed aggressive nature and an enthusiasm for battle and warfare. It seemed so contradictory that the Klingons would be so passive, submissive and pathetic in their relations with the Feds, Romulans, etc. It goes against their nature as it was portrayed in the shows.
Out of interest what period of time do you think a soceity needs to undergo a dramatic change? One Hundred years, a thousand years?

It could have been going on far longer than what the show potrays, and more moderates managed to get the upperhand in the period between TOS and TNG rather than the periods pre-TOS.
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Old July 18 2014, 08:39 PM   #44
the praetor
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

KRUGE: We are going to this planet. Even as our emissaries negotiate for peace with the Federation, we will act for the preservation of our race! We will seize the secret of this weapon. The secret of ultimate power!
Kruge is using "preservation" as a justification for his actions. But in the very same dialogue shows what his real ambition is.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Kruge's wanting to get a hold of the Genesis specs didn't negate his paranoia.

The Klingon ambassador made a passionate case that the Feds were out to annihilate his people. Considering how the Klingons had been portrayed up to that point, it made sense. The Klingons had displayed a paranoid xenophobic mind set.

Were the Klingons prepared for a full scale war with the Feds during the time of TVH? Were they seeking war with the Feds? You probably know more than me.

It seemed to me that Kirk was really a scapegoat. The Klingons didn't want, or perhaps they couldn't afford, to have a full scale war with the Feds at that time. Blaming Kirk for the genocidal Genesis "torpedo" was more convenient.

Afterall, in ST5, the Klingons, who were bent on getting Kirk, had Kirk where they wanted him -- in their gunsight. But they let him go. I guess it wasn't all about Kirk.

In any case, it's ok that different viewers interpret the actions they see on the screen differently.
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Old July 19 2014, 08:00 AM   #45
grendelsbayne
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Re: The Dishonorable Mr. Worf

^You're obsessed with this idea that because the klingons seriously mistrust the federation, they must be xenophobic. It's just not true. They're the two sides in a long, ongoing cold war - of course the klingons suspected the federation was up to no good. They considered the federation a threat to them, so anything the federation did would be met with a certain amount of suspicion. However, you've already been provided with plenty of examples of OTHER races that the klingons did not treat with suspicion. There's a difference between distrusting one nation and being 'xenophobic'. Real xenophobes cannot trust other cultures. At all. The Klingons were not xenophobic.
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