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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old July 9 2014, 06:40 PM   #31
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

Christopher wrote: View Post
No, I'm talking about adult attitudes at the time. It's only in recent decades that society has become aware of pedophilia as a serious threat, since people in the past just didn't talk about such things.
Growing up in Los Angeles, I recall conversations and news stories (over 4 decades ago), where my parents & their friends talked about adults getting arrested for preying on children/teens. The specter of the "creepy" and/or professional boundary-breaking teachers (under the suspicion of pedophilia) or neighborhood adults was not some hidden or seldom discussed matter.

I think exposure to this / recognition as undeniable crime depended on where one lived, and how crime-sensitive the resident culture was at the time.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:42 PM   #32
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Marsden wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post

Kirk's computer states specifically that she's 19 years old, born one year after the massacre on Tarsus.
Thank you, you're right of course, but my memory did not serve me well. I still think she was a very mature looking 19.
I admit I was startled the first time someone mentioned that she was only nineteen. but then I went and rewatched the episode to be sure.
If she had been older than 20, then Karidian's history would not have begun "almost to the day" that Kodos disappeared: his history would have begun much earlier than that--with him siring Lenore.

As has been pointed out, Barbara Anderson was not a thirtysomething-year-old actress playing one of Mr. Kotter's high school sweat hogs. Her actual age was pretty age-appropriate for the character she played.
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Old July 9 2014, 07:03 PM   #33
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I admit I was startled the first time someone mentioned that she was only nineteen.
Ditto. I must've heard the line plenty of times (unless it's one of those that was cut out of the syndicated reruns), but it never registered with me until it was brought up on this BBS a year or two ago. Anderson just struck me as more mature than that.
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Old July 9 2014, 07:13 PM   #34
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

I think it's clear that Lenore was using her sex appeal to attract Kirk to try to murder him. If Kirk appeared to be hitting on her, she only encouraged it. To Lenore, Kirk was a fly in her web.
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Old July 9 2014, 08:01 PM   #35
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

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I think it's clear that Lenore was using her sex appeal to attract Kirk to try to murder him. If Kirk appeared to be hitting on her, she only encouraged it. To Lenore, Kirk was a fly in her web.
They were both manipulating each other, at least at first. Neither of them come off looking particularly well . . . although at least Kirk wasn't planning to murder anyone!
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Old July 9 2014, 08:27 PM   #36
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I think it's clear that Lenore was using her sex appeal to attract Kirk to try to murder him. If Kirk appeared to be hitting on her, she only encouraged it. To Lenore, Kirk was a fly in her web.
This sounds perilously close to a "it wasn't really rape, because with the way she dressed, she actually encouraged it and I simply fell into her web" argument. I'm dubious of any argument to justify someone's behavior that's based upon someone else's perceived behavior.
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Old July 9 2014, 08:59 PM   #37
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

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I think it's clear that Lenore was using her sex appeal to attract Kirk to try to murder him. If Kirk appeared to be hitting on her, she only encouraged it. To Lenore, Kirk was a fly in her web.
This sounds perilously close to a "it wasn't really rape, because with the way she dressed, she actually encouraged it and I simply fell into her web" argument. I'm dubious of any argument to justify someone's behavior that's based upon someone else's perceived behavior.
Kirk didn't rape anybody and nor did he make sexual advances to a child. Let's not conflate Kirk's behavior with rape, statutory rape, or pedophilia.

Lenore, on the other hand, was a murderess. As for the evidence that she was trying to seduce him, well, see the episode.

The episode is what it is. Of course, it was a product of its time.
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Old July 9 2014, 09:14 PM   #38
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I admit I was startled the first time someone mentioned that she was only nineteen.
Ditto. I must've heard the line plenty of times (unless it's one of those that was cut out of the syndicated reruns), but it never registered with me until it was brought up on this BBS a year or two ago. Anderson just struck me as more mature than that.
Heck, I think I had already started plotting the new book when somebody pointed that out.

"Whoa! She was only nineteen?"
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Old July 9 2014, 09:31 PM   #39
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
This sounds perilously close to a "it wasn't really rape, because with the way she dressed, she actually encouraged it and I simply fell into her web" argument. I'm dubious of any argument to justify someone's behavior that's based upon someone else's perceived behavior.
That's ridiculous. One more time: A 19-year-old woman is a legal adult. She's mature enough to make her own choices. It's really rather insulting to talk about her as though she were a child.

Also, one more time: Kirk is not a sexual predator. He was investigating a claim that her father was a mass murderer, and he engaged in mutual flirtation with her -- a fellow consenting adult -- because he saw that it gave him an opportunity to investigate an act of genocide. Getting laid was the last thing on his mind, and it's an enormous misreading of the episode to think otherwise. Yes, he was using her -- just as she was using him -- but not for that end. The mutual exploitation and manipulation was not about sex. These were both using seduction as a tool to get what they really wanted -- in Lenore's case, to cover up her father's crimes, and in Kirk's case, to expose them.

For that matter, it's unlikely that Kirk and Lenore even had sex. Look at the timing. Yes, we saw Kirk and Lenore fall into an embrace and the camera faded out -- but that same evening, we saw a hand that turned out to be Lenore's spraying tetralubisol into Riley's milk down in engineering. Since Uhura, who's presumably on the same shift rotation as Kirk, was still awake in an active, well-populated rec room, it's logical to assume that it wasn't too late in the evening -- not very long after the kiss in the observation gallery. Okay, it's not impossible that they had a quickie inside the nearest shuttlecraft and then went their separate ways, but let's remember that was 1960s early-evening TV and was obligated to be pretty chaste by modern standards. Most likely, the intent was that after their romantic walk together in the gallery, Kirk took her back to her quarters, said goodnight, and went on his way like a proper 1960s gentleman, whereupon Lenore snuck down to engineering and poisoned Riley.

So bringing rape into this is completely off-base on several levels. Two consenting adults flirted and made out for a little while, both of them manipulating each other for purposes that had nothing to do with sex. Not honest or wholesome on either side, but a far cry from sexual assault of any kind.
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Old July 9 2014, 09:46 PM   #40
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I think it's clear that Lenore was using her sex appeal to attract Kirk to try to murder him. If Kirk appeared to be hitting on her, she only encouraged it. To Lenore, Kirk was a fly in her web.
They were both manipulating each other, at least at first. Neither of them come off looking particularly well . . . although at least Kirk wasn't planning to murder anyone!
True. I wasn't trying to suggest that Kirk didn't have an ulterior motive.

My point was that the idea that Kirk was trying his moves on someone who was unreceptive and who lacked the right and ability to give consent is patently false.

Further, when Lenore beamed aboard the Enterprise to ask for a lift, it was quite clear, from the reactions of the crew in the background, that what she was wearing was intended to be arousing. The idea that Lenore, as an actor, didn't dress herself for the occasion, both fully aware of how those in her presence would react and in order to enhance the chances of the Company getting its ride, just doesn't make sense.
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Old July 9 2014, 10:14 PM   #41
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

"Your Honor, it was clearly consensual: look how she was dressed! What other possible conclusion could I have reached?"

I think we would all agree that this was not Kirk's finest hour. It would appear that both Eve McHuron and Lenore Karidian still haven't met a paragon of virtue.
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Old July 9 2014, 10:36 PM   #42
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

What are you arguing, exactly?
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Old July 9 2014, 10:45 PM   #43
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
"Your Honor, it was clearly consensual: look how she was dressed! What other possible conclusion could I have reached?"
Just repeating the same incompetent and misguided analogy doesn't make it any more justified. We're talking about a woman who's not only above the age of consent but above the age of majority -- old enough to go to college, to live on her own, to vote, to enter into contracts, to open a business, to serve on juries, to make out a will, to enlist in the armed forces, to be sued, to be tried as an adult, etc. In every respect (except for the consumption of alcohol in certain states), United States society accepts that a 19-year-old is a full adult capable of exercising independent judgment. (Except in Alabama, Mississippi, and Puerto Rico, where the age of majority is 21 -- but the age of consent in all three is 16.) So your insistence on talking about 19-year-olds as though they were underage is bizarrely wrong and nonsensical. You're completely disconnected from reality as well as from the facts of the work of fiction we're discussing.

And in point of fact, the way Lenore was dressed in the course of the episode was downright modest compared to the way most TOS women were attired. Heck, the first time Kirk started to make out with her, she was literally wearing a veil. And the green dress she wore in the observation gallery -- before the alleged sex that probably never happened -- showed no skin at all except her head and hands. Which makes your analogy even more illegitimate.

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http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...ekinghd140.jpg
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http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...ekinghd414.jpg
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I think we would all agree that this was not Kirk's finest hour.
No, but not even remotely for the reasons you imply.
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Old July 9 2014, 10:52 PM   #44
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Kirk didn't rape anybody and nor did he make sexual advances to a child. Let's not conflate Kirk's behavior with rape, statutory rape, or pedophilia.
Good point; she was an adult, not some teenager running around a high school. She was also a sophisticated woman in full command of her senses/motives, and not in the position of underage victim.
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Old July 9 2014, 11:28 PM   #45
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Re: "The Conscience of the King": Plot Holes and Questions.

After reading everyone's interesting and thoughtful posts, I thought I'd chime in with a few observations. I'll let the pictures carry the weight, since pictures are always fun and instructive.



I wonder if the Karidian Company of Players carry with them their own sets? They wouldn't be showing much 'thanks' to the crew if they had to earn their performance by toiling away with saws and paint!






Someone mentioned Lenore's many costume changes. I'd never paid much attention to it, but they're right! I wonder now if she holds the Star Trek record for most costume changes? I don't even think France Nuyen had this many.
By the way, that observation deck had only this one appearance, but it sure left an impression. Who among us didn't visualize this very place in our heads when Sarek spoke of it in his 'private meditation talk' in Journey to Babel?


This is a meaningless observation, but that woman seated in the back doesn't look like she belongs there. What I mean is...well, she doesn't even really look like a 1960's person (whatever that's supposed to be)! Maybe it's just that she isn't an actress, or something like that. At least we see her, unlike...


That's about the most we see of the other party guests. Speaking of that, who'd go to this party? I'm not aware that they knew anyone on the planet. Is it some sort of traditional function in the theater world? And what if there are other colonies on this world? If you happen to be a theater lover, and happen to live in another settlement where the Karidian Players didn't perform, sucks to be you, I guess.


Was it wise to move Tom Leighton's body? I didn't get the sense that there had been any kind of investigation between the scenes pictured. There must be some kind of law enforcement apparatus on the planet, or are visiting starfleet officers automatically the big shots?


The rec room was the most boring place on the ship. How can you have any fun in there? There's that computer thingie on that table, but it looks a lot like a piece of work hardware to me. Well, there's always three dimensional chess. No, wait...what happened to the chess pieces? Is this right after Charlie X, and they hadn't gotten around to replacing the ones he'd melted yet? Luckily, Uhura planned ahead for her trip, and brought her own entertainment!


But all in all, people from the 23rd century are no different than you or me: Just turn on the tv, and they'll plop themselves down for hours!


To me this is the "iconic" image in my head when I think of this episode.


Any more thoughts about this thing? I can't figure out what it's for...and it strikes me as odd that it just happens to be so close to the captain's quarters. Was this vent ever spotted again in background corridor?


At first glance, this looks rather dated. But maybe by Star Trek time, only paper documents are considered legally valid? But it also makes me wonder what happened to that voice test of Karidian that Kirk took. You do have to admire Kirk, though: The torturous Tarsus IV experience of his youth, and with circumstantial evidence now mounting against Karidian, Kirk wanted, as he even said himself, to be absolutely sure.


The actor next to Arnold Moss really poured himself into his small role!


I'm far, far from an expert on hostage situations and such, but could not one of these able-bodied crewmen and women have helped out somehow?
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