RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,351
Posts: 5,502,760
Members: 25,120
Currently online: 574
Newest member: Gaytrekgeek

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

Rumor Mill: Saldana Gives Birth
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

New Line of Anovos Enterprise Uniforms
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11

Frakes: Sign Me Up!
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 8 2014, 04:01 PM   #16
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Ferguson, Missouri, USA
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
An in-universe explanation I think that is implied is that Quonos was doomed if Federation assistance wasn't rendered, but the Kitomer Accords provided for that.


The real question is why does the Federation keep saving the Klingons, only to have them forget a few years later, and become the UFP's enemies again.
An answer would be that the Federation didn't render assistance to the Klingons and that the Khitomer Accords was really nothing more than a truce between the Federation and the Empire.

I don't think an actual alliance between the Federation and Klingons came about until after the Narendra III incident, but both sides reserved the right to withdraw from the Accords.
__________________
"Don't sweat the small stuff--it makes you small-minded..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8 2014, 04:32 PM   #17
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

I never really understood what they were talking about in ST VI:TUC (I love that film, but I prefer not to think too much about the plotholes):

RAND: Captain, I'm getting a message from Praxis.
SULU: Let's have it.
KERLA (on viewscreen): This is Brigadier Kerla, speaking for the High Command. There has been an incident on Praxis. However everything is under control. We have no need for assistance. Obey treaty stipulations and remain outside the Neutral Zone. This transmission ends now.

SPOCK: Good morning. Two months ago a Federation starship monitored an explosion on the Klingon moon Praxis. We believe it was caused by over-mining and insufficient safety precautions. The moon's decimation means a deadly pollution of their ozone. They will have depleted their supply of oxygen in approximately fifty Earth years.

I suppose they mined only the dark side of a Qo'nos moon so the subspace shockwave wouldn't destroy the homeworld? But what's the deal, surely the Klingons have plenty of colonies and other inhabited / occupied worlds, especially according to "Day of the Dove":

MARA: We have always fought. We must. We are hunters, Captain, tracking and taking what we need. There are poor planets in the Klingon systems, we must push outward if we are to survive.

So the planets in the Klingon systems are poor (Praxis?) and the Klingons had already practised a colonization strategy strategy "to survive" but they forgot all of this by the time of ST VI:TUC?

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8 2014, 04:36 PM   #18
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
So the planets in the Klingon systems are poor (Praxis?) and the Klingons had already practised a colonization strategy strategy "to survive" but they forgot all of this by the time of ST VI:TUC?
What exactly have they forgotten? Just because they have a moon nearby with some mineral wealth doesn't mean it's enough to support them. Plus, it wouldn't be an easy feat to move billions of inhabitants.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8 2014, 05:53 PM   #19
Last Redshirt
Lieutenant Commander
 
Last Redshirt's Avatar
 
Location: On the Starship Enterprise
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

Robert, why would the Klingons ditch their homeworld? I get that it would be polluted and they would need to divert resources from the rest of the Empire to help them, but, I can't see them just leaving their homeworld to the wolves when they can, theoretically, fix it to at least habitable.

The Klingon Empire surely has hundreds of systems either fully colonized by Klingons or under occupation by the Klingons, though.
Last Redshirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8 2014, 06:12 PM   #20
wulfio
Captain
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

FormerLurker wrote: View Post
Who's to say whether an explosion caused by dilithium instability can or cannot generate a subspace shockwave? We don't currently know the properties of dilithium anyway, so saying the 'science' is ridiculous is like saying dogs are descended from wolves is ridiculous. Even though we know the genetic history of dogs, the two species are dissimilar enough to deny the relationship. That doesn't make it true. Therefore, it can be said that once we do know the properties of dilithium, we'll know for certain whether or not an explosion caused by instability can generate a subspace shockwave. Until then, the STORY (much more important, by the way) says it can, and that's what matters.
Common sense and science say. The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away, the force would have been stronger than that of a supernova. And lets say we even suspend disbelief for one second, and believe that a lunar object is even capable of creating a force of that magnitude, in that event, Qo`Nos and the whole solar system would have been completely destroyed.

Putting that in to context, a supernova would have be closer than 25 light years to have a terribly adverse effect on earth.

Last edited by wulfio; July 8 2014 at 06:25 PM.
wulfio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8 2014, 06:24 PM   #21
mos6507
Captain
 
mos6507's Avatar
 
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

Star Trek VI is more allegory than science. Everyone knows that it was meant to symbolize the Chernobyl incident. It was more dramatic to have the Excelsior "flipped" than it would be to have the equivalent of Geiger counters in California picking up residual radiation being carried through air currents.

Also, like Chernobyl, it did not doom Russia, but it was a symbol of the waning of the soviet communist system. Likewise, the Khitomer accords are equivalent to Glasnost.

Since we didn't know at the time Russia would open up, only to turn into the kleptocracy it is today under Putin, we had no way to extrapolate what happened to Klingon culture in the gap between Trek VI and TNG, and so that period was never filled in.
__________________
Fem Trekz on Facebook
mos6507 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8 2014, 07:44 PM   #22
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

wulfio wrote: View Post
FormerLurker wrote: View Post
Who's to say whether an explosion caused by dilithium instability can or cannot generate a subspace shockwave? We don't currently know the properties of dilithium anyway, so saying the 'science' is ridiculous is like saying dogs are descended from wolves is ridiculous. Even though we know the genetic history of dogs, the two species are dissimilar enough to deny the relationship. That doesn't make it true. Therefore, it can be said that once we do know the properties of dilithium, we'll know for certain whether or not an explosion caused by instability can generate a subspace shockwave. Until then, the STORY (much more important, by the way) says it can, and that's what matters.
Common sense and science say. The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away, the force would have been stronger than that of a supernova. And lets say we even suspend disbelief for one second, and believe that a lunar object is even capable of creating a force of that magnitude, in that event, Qo`Nos and the whole solar system would have been completely destroyed.

Putting that in to context, a supernova would have be closer than 25 light years to have a terribly adverse effect on earth.
Star Trek with shitty science? That's unpossible! Next thing you'll tell me is that they put a pink barrier at the edge of the galaxy... or that they can make two complete people out of one in the transporter... or there are giant snowflakes at the edge of the universe... or...
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8 2014, 10:06 PM   #23
wulfio
Captain
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

BillJ wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post
FormerLurker wrote: View Post
Who's to say whether an explosion caused by dilithium instability can or cannot generate a subspace shockwave? We don't currently know the properties of dilithium anyway, so saying the 'science' is ridiculous is like saying dogs are descended from wolves is ridiculous. Even though we know the genetic history of dogs, the two species are dissimilar enough to deny the relationship. That doesn't make it true. Therefore, it can be said that once we do know the properties of dilithium, we'll know for certain whether or not an explosion caused by instability can generate a subspace shockwave. Until then, the STORY (much more important, by the way) says it can, and that's what matters.
Common sense and science say. The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away, the force would have been stronger than that of a supernova. And lets say we even suspend disbelief for one second, and believe that a lunar object is even capable of creating a force of that magnitude, in that event, Qo`Nos and the whole solar system would have been completely destroyed.

Putting that in to context, a supernova would have be closer than 25 light years to have a terribly adverse effect on earth.
Star Trek with shitty science? That's unpossible! Next thing you'll tell me is that they put a pink barrier at the edge of the galaxy... or that they can make two complete people out of one in the transporter... or there are giant snowflakes at the edge of the universe... or...
Do you actually read the threads or just look to respond to comments out of context with condescension? I made an off hand comment about ST VI, because that`s what this thread is about. Someone defended the `science`, and I explained to them why it was ridiculous.

Last edited by wulfio; July 8 2014 at 10:18 PM.
wulfio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8 2014, 10:25 PM   #24
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

wulfio wrote: View Post
Do you actually read the threads or just look to respond to comments out of context with condescension? I made an off hand comment about ST VI, because that`s what this thread is about. Someone defended the `science`, and I explained to them why it was ridiculous.
When you start a sentence with "common sense", you'll find many people will respond to you with condescension because that's exactly what you're dishing out.

Mmkay?
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9 2014, 12:28 AM   #25
USS Triumphant
Rear Admiral
 
USS Triumphant's Avatar
 
Location: Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

wulfio wrote: View Post
The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away,
What magnitude, exactly? We know it was a subspace shockwave. And it seemed to do relatively little to the Excelsior, really, except bounce it around a bit. Maybe the reason for the severity of its interaction with Excelsior was because the ship had propulsion equipment that relied on subspace manipulations, and the wave was damaging ships, frotzing subspace radio, and similarly screwing up other subspace equipment for 100s of light years, but having relatively little effect on the actual material of planets or even people.
__________________
As the brilliant philosopher once said... Everybody, have fun tonight. Everybody, Wang Chung tonight.
USS Triumphant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9 2014, 04:18 AM   #26
wulfio
Captain
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

BillJ wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post
Do you actually read the threads or just look to respond to comments out of context with condescension? I made an off hand comment about ST VI, because that`s what this thread is about. Someone defended the `science`, and I explained to them why it was ridiculous.
When you start a sentence with "common sense", you'll find many people will respond to you with condescension because that's exactly what you're dishing out.

Mmkay?
No I`m not being condescending. He asked me a question. You however, are condescending in 90% of the posts I see you write. Are you a teenager? I hope you don`t communicate with people in real life the same way you do on this board.
wulfio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9 2014, 04:23 AM   #27
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

wulfio wrote: View Post

You however, are condescending in 90% of the posts I see you write.
Just 90%? Shit, I'm slacking.

Though I am honored that you are going around grading all of my posts. Makes me feel special.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9 2014, 04:31 AM   #28
wulfio
Captain
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post
The Excelsior would not have been in Klingon space. Therefor, If a shockwave originating from a lunar object sends out a shock wave of that magnitude 100`s of light years away,
What magnitude, exactly? We know it was a subspace shockwave. And it seemed to do relatively little to the Excelsior, really, except bounce it around a bit. Maybe the reason for the severity of its interaction with Excelsior was because the ship had propulsion equipment that relied on subspace manipulations, and the wave was damaging ships, frotzing subspace radio, and similarly screwing up other subspace equipment for 100s of light years, but having relatively little effect on the actual material of planets or even people.
This is a material and terminology created by the writers of trek that your basing your argument on. Subspace isn`t a real thing.

Look I like the movie. All I said is the science in TUC was ridiculous, because it is ridiculous. That is star trek, it`s techno babble and pseudo science.
wulfio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9 2014, 04:32 AM   #29
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

wulfio wrote: View Post
Subspace isn`t a real thing.
Neither is Star Trek.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9 2014, 04:34 AM   #30
wulfio
Captain
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: The devastation of the Klingon Homeworld between STVI and TNG

BillJ wrote: View Post
wulfio wrote: View Post

You however, are condescending in 90% of the posts I see you write.
Just 90%? Shit, I'm slacking.

Though I am honored that you are going around grading all of my posts. Makes me feel special.
I really hope for your sake that you`re a teenager.
wulfio is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:03 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.