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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 7 2014, 10:38 PM   #16
CorporalClegg
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

To hate any film is extremely silly, and the idea presents a growing problem I see in the internet age with any fandom. People say "I hate this." or "I hate that." about pieces they don't like of whatever art form they're passionate about. Why hate? At most, any of these films cost $15 to see. Don't like it? Shrug it off and move on.

This is why blanket statements like [TFF, INS, STiD] is the worst film ever. Well no, it really isn't. Realistically, all Star Trek films exists well above Hollywood's 70th percentile. It's even higher if film from around the world is included. There currently exists tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of films that have been made over the last century that are complete and utter rubbish. The venturous can find some on Netflix.

As such, I find all ten "classic" films watchable. Certainly, some are better than others (albeit as much as some like to claim), but I don't know that I'd call any of them out-right "bad."

That said, the only one that is really in dire need of help is Nemesis. That the problems fall solely on the director. I've never exactly been a fan of Logan, but the script was what it was. And the film would have otherwise been fairly okay if the guy behind the camera actually gave two shits.

It's not a reach to call Baird a "hack" director. While his acumen as an editor can be debated, with all three films he directed, he was so obviously only there for the pay check. Everything about them (outside perhaps RDJ's performance in Marshalls) is completely by the numbers. There's no nuance in them at all.

This effect was only exacerbated in NEM due to his obvious ignorance of the source material. That's what sets Wise, Meyer, and Abrams apart. While they too knew nothing of Trek when they started, they cared enough to educate themselves and make it their own. Baird clearly didn't do that.

They other two common offenders (INS, and TFF) really don't need that much help. The only thing TFF needed was for the studio to stay out of Shatner's way at let him make the film he wanted to. There's so obviously a brilliant shiny film hidden beneath those layers of coal. Had Paramount just cut bait during the strike, recouped and tried again a year later, things probably would have turned out better. And of course, not insisted on all those stylistic changes.

INS's biggest problem isn't so much the humor. Yeah it's juvenile and silly but ultimately harmless. The problem is it tried to build a "fun, family movie" around a serious moral dilemma--one, I might add, that has been the source of more debate than any other in the history of Star Trek. If your name isn't Joss Whedon, you shouldn't even bother trying something like that. And I don't know if he could have even pulled it off.

More importantly, make me care about the victim. Having the allegoric Native Americans be well-to-do, pseudo-intellectual white hippies who have a predisposition for condescension and pomp isn't going to get the job done.
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Old July 7 2014, 10:57 PM   #17
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

What would it take for Nemesis to be forgiven? There's far too much that's wrong to really fix it, but here's the basics:

Don't hire a fanboy to write the script. Hire a director who has a fundamental understanding of what "Star Trek" is and who these characters are. Don't turn the Romulans into pussies. Don't present the Remans as telepathic Orcs. No pointless mindraping of Troi, m'kay? Don't bother killing Data, and spare us the lame B-4 storyline. And, for frack's sake, don't even think about inserting an ATV scene, no matter how much Patrick Stewart insists upon it!
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Old July 8 2014, 09:23 AM   #18
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

I literally hate the TNG movies. I want to burn all the copies and stomp on the ashes and piss on them. I want to bitchslap Berman. I want to shit at David Carson's porch. Boy I'm mad.
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Old July 8 2014, 10:50 AM   #19
Robert Comsol
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

David Carson was the director of GEN, if you are offended by the story you should seek out the porches of Berman, Moore and Braga.

Bob
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Old July 8 2014, 03:03 PM   #20
ChristopherPike
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

I don't hate Into Darkness, but some kind of flashback during Cumberbatch's character reveal. If not the Eugenics War and Augments in action on Earth of the past, then certainly Marcus finding the Botany Bay and a way to canonize the identity reassignment stuff from the comic. While he's talking, something visually similar to the Nimoy-Spock mind meld with Kirk from the 2009 film, throwing up images of Khan's past. Instead of one prolonged shot of BC crying and talking to the wall.

That's an easy way to forgive the film-makers for stringing people along with the "Is he Khan, Isn't he Khan?" hype. Because the various attempts to muddy the water with talk of Gary Mitchell etc, if not the casting itself, could clearly lead you to believe not. So the scene I'm referring to, without more to back it up, went down like a lead balloon.
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Old July 9 2014, 12:58 AM   #21
The Old Building & Loan
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

If we're giving the bad films do-overs, I'd be much more interested in fixes that would make them more enjoyable rather than ones that would allow me to "forgive" them.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:02 AM   #22
GalaxyX
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
If we're giving the bad films do-overs, I'd be much more interested in fixes that would make them more enjoyable rather than ones that would allow me to "forgive" them.
hahahah

For all the TNG movies, that would take tossing away all the original scripts for all 4 movies, and coming up with something completely different for each one!
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Old July 9 2014, 12:18 PM   #23
austen_pierce
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If a movie is bad, no amount of tweaked VFX and modified technical mumbo-jumbo will make the slightest difference.

Insurrection is the worst Trek film (IMO), because it's dull.
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
If we're giving the bad films do-overs, I'd be much more interested in fixes that would make them more enjoyable rather than ones that would allow me to "forgive" them.
While I'm game for a FX makeover in the style of TMP-DE, for TFF, I have to agree that FX just wasn't the problem with Insurrection. I disliked the Baku to the point of utter disinterest. I had no interest in the fountain of youth, or the one-dimensional Sona. Ironically, the FX of the Briar Patch were the only thing in the theatrical screening to wow me. But home video just hadn't done that justice.
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Old July 9 2014, 04:00 PM   #24
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
If I remember correctly, Shatner wanted this "god" to actually be the devil. I'm not sure if he meant to portray the devil in the religious form, but I do know that practically half of TOS deals with aliens pretending to be gods and basically being the devil instead.

So it's not far fetched for a TOS movie to deal with the same topic.
Strong points; TOS did have its share of false god stories, and how the crew--or specifcally Kirk--rejected charlatans or posers:

"Man has no need for gods. We find the one quite sufficient".

So it was not difficult to comprehend the plot of TFF, especially with Kirk's challenging:

"What does God need with a starship?"

From TOS to the movies, there's a consistent line of Kirk going head to head with those who would crown themselves God, when in his mind, he realized they were flase--not the real deal. It was the journey to this conclusion (TFF's script) which demanded work, but the basic idea was in keeping with classic TOS.
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Old July 10 2014, 02:50 AM   #25
2takesfrakes
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

Caligula wrote: View Post
What would it take for Nemesis to be forgiven?

[...SNIP!]

Don't hire a fanboy to write the script.
... AGREED!!!

I'm so glad John Logan wasn't on the scene, earlier. Imagine him having input on FIRST CONTACT? And if he didn't have his head rammed up Brent Spiner's ass in the first place, NEMESIS would never have happened! But movies like that do happen when the actors in it are given far too much control. Actors are pretty good, though, about pointing out to a director what's wrong with a scene. Unfortunately, though, their "solutions" generally tend to suck ...
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Old July 10 2014, 05:28 PM   #26
GalaxyX
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
If I remember correctly, Shatner wanted this "god" to actually be the devil. I'm not sure if he meant to portray the devil in the religious form, but I do know that practically half of TOS deals with aliens pretending to be gods and basically being the devil instead.

So it's not far fetched for a TOS movie to deal with the same topic.
Strong points; TOS did have its share of false god stories, and how the crew--or specifcally Kirk--rejected charlatans or posers:

"Man has no need for gods. We find the one quite sufficient".

So it was not difficult to comprehend the plot of TFF, especially with Kirk's challenging:

"What does God need with a starship?"

From TOS to the movies, there's a consistent line of Kirk going head to head with those who would crown themselves God, when in his mind, he realized they were flase--not the real deal. It was the journey to this conclusion (TFF's script) which demanded work, but the basic idea was in keeping with classic TOS.
I think this is one of the characteristics that gives TOS its charm.

And TFF is the most TOS movie out of them all, but it has a more contemporary feeling to it than the TOS takes on the "false gods" ideas.

I think conceptually TFF works, it's just unfortunate that the implementation was botched.
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Old July 11 2014, 01:50 PM   #27
austen_pierce
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

I would want to know more about the creature's prison. Why was it trapped on the planet? Who trapped it there? Why does it need a starship to escape rather than anything smaller. Seemed to fit fine in the shuttlecraft....
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Old July 11 2014, 03:55 PM   #28
KaineMorrison
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

Nemesis - Remove any and ALL references and mentions of B4.
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Old July 12 2014, 04:24 AM   #29
austen_pierce
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

KaineMorrison wrote: View Post
Nemesis - Remove any and ALL references and mentions of B4.
Yes. There's still plenty for Data/Spiner to do what with the Theleron threat and a perfect cloak.

Come to think of it, I could do without the Data secondary plot in every TNG movie.
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Old July 12 2014, 08:56 AM   #30
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Re: What would it take for you to forgive a Trek movie you hate.

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
KaineMorrison wrote: View Post
Nemesis - Remove any and ALL references and mentions of B4.
Yes. There's still plenty for Data/Spiner to do what with the Theleron threat and a perfect cloak.

Come to think of it, I could do without the Data secondary plot in every TNG movie.
I only saw Nemesis once and it was on Opening Day.
I felt the inclusion of B4 was such a cop out.
Why "kill" off Data, only to have all of his thoughts, memories and feelings implanted in B4? It cheapened Data's death!

I don't know what a Theleron is, nor the threat that, he/she/them/it posed.
I'll watch the movie again once Season 7 is out on Blu-Ray.
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