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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 7 2014, 07:26 PM   #16
T'Cal
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

I always figured that at the end of First Contact, Picard and Company go to the future but not exactly the one they left, since they altered the past a bit. The problems people had with the idea of ST:ENT can be explained away such as, "Why had we never heard of Archer or the NX-01 Enterprise?" In just a few lines in an early episode, Archer might have told one of his staff how his father planned to name the first warp 5 ship Constitution (or whatever) but Cochrane, who worked alongside Henry, had suggested Enterprise and the elder Archer followed that advice. IIRC, Archer told a story about Cochrane in ENT's Borg episode in which the scientist/inventor occasionally spoke of cyborgs who tried to interfere with humans meeting Vulkins, and some future astronauts who helped him. As an homage to the E-E, he convinced Henry to use the name Enterprise.
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Old July 7 2014, 08:50 PM   #17
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

BillJ wrote: View Post
This. Scott acquired the plexiglass he needed for the whale tank by bartering the formula. They didn't actually make any transparent aluminum.
Agreed. Also, remember that Nichols says that their plexiglass would have to be 6 inches thick to do the job, while Scotty mentions that an equivalent piece of transparent aluminum would only be 1 inch thick. Later, when they're installing the tank, it looks to me like the material they're installing is much more than 1 inch thick, further supporting the idea that it is standard 20th century plexiglass, not transparent aluminum.

dub wrote: View Post
My guess is Nick Meyer brought attention to some of the time travel consequences and then made fun of them because he doesn't really give a crap about time travel consequences and he was letting us know that he doesn't take it too seriously in this film so neither should we. Just my guess though.
Harve Bennett once addressed the time travel issues. I believe it was on the DVD interviews or commentary, but I'm not sure. Basically, he says that the "how do we know he didn't invent the thing" line was their throwaway nod to the time travel issues but that, basically, they decided that in this movie they were just going to have fun and not worry about things like that.
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Old July 7 2014, 11:42 PM   #18
trekshark
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

I wonder if Chekov's phaser (disruptor? was it from the bird of prey's small arms inventory?) started working once they took it away from the Enterprise's reactors
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Old July 8 2014, 02:20 AM   #19
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

I'm actually sort of surprised that the Klingon weapon would fail near eight fission reactors. You'd think the Klingons would make weapons that can work anyplace. Or maybe that's why they like their blades so much. Faulty disruptors.
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Old July 8 2014, 02:31 AM   #20
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

Ithekro wrote: View Post
I half suspect that Temporal Invetigations was formed in the aftermath of the Kirk era. Perhaps even well into the 24th century.
Christopher's novels explain the origin of the DTI. It was created in the early 2270s following a series of temporal incidents that took place during the 2260s, several of which involved the Enterprise and her crew.

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Old July 8 2014, 09:54 AM   #21
Robert Comsol
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

Did any of these events in the 2260's change history?

Didn't all of these events ("Tomorrow Is Yesterday", "The City on the Edge of Forever", "Assignment: Earth") prove that you can't change history (despite overdramatic speculation to the contrary) but merely assist to make it happen?

Same with "Tribbles and Tribble-ations". It happened as it was supposed to happen, there was only the belief that history could be changed, but it turned out to be wrong, too

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Old July 8 2014, 10:50 AM   #22
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

Ithekro wrote: View Post
I half suspect that Temporal Invetigations was formed in the aftermath of the Kirk era. Perhaps even well into the 24th century. Thus is seems likely that they can't interfere with time
There's a novel, DTI: Forgotten History, which tells the origins of the Department of Temporal Investigations. It's a result of all of Kirk's TOS and TAS adventures.
T'Cal wrote: View Post
I always figured that at the end of First Contact, Picard and Company go to the future but not exactly the one they left, since they altered the past a bit. The problems people had with the idea of ST:ENT can be explained away such as, "Why had we never heard of Archer or the NX-01 Enterprise?" In just a few lines in an early episode, Archer might have told one of his staff how his father planned to name the first warp 5 ship Constitution (or whatever) but Cochrane, who worked alongside Henry, had suggested Enterprise and the elder Archer followed that advice. IIRC, Archer told a story about Cochrane in ENT's Borg episode in which the scientist/inventor occasionally spoke of cyborgs who tried to interfere with humans meeting Vulkins, and some future astronauts who helped him. As an homage to the E-E, he convinced Henry to use the name Enterprise.
I think if FC/ENT changed history, it would break all the direct prequels we see, like the NX-01 crew bios in the USS Defiant (fresh from "The Tholian Web") in "In a Mirror, Darkly" and the (admittedly terrible) finale crossover to TNG.
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Old July 9 2014, 08:54 PM   #23
Shon T'Hara
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Did any of these events in the 2260's change history?

Didn't all of these events ("Tomorrow Is Yesterday", "The City on the Edge of Forever", "Assignment: Earth") prove that you can't change history (despite overdramatic speculation to the contrary) but merely assist to make it happen?
No, McCoy very definitely altered history when he went through the Guardian.
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Old July 9 2014, 10:08 PM   #24
Mytran
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

The only evidence we have for that is the clips film reel shown by the Guardian, which it used in order to manipulate Kirk and Spock into fulfilling their predestined part in extant history.
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Old July 9 2014, 11:09 PM   #25
Ithekro
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

Well and the USS Enterprise no longer being in orbit after McCoy enters the structure.
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Old July 9 2014, 11:12 PM   #26
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

A communications blackout is something that even the technology in Kirk's time could accomplish. It would be a doddle for the Guardian of Forever!!!
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Old July 9 2014, 11:35 PM   #27
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

Mytran wrote: View Post
A communications blackout is something that even the technology in Kirk's time could accomplish. It would be a doddle for the Guardian of Forever!!!
Except we know the intent was that the timeline changed and the Enterprise was gone. That was why we got the climbing shot from Kirk into an empty starscape.

In story, the Guardian seemingly has no motive to change the timeline or change it back. McCoy is likely nothing more than a piece of garbage floating down the river to it. It is probably the focal point of a multitude of different timelines.
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Old July 9 2014, 11:48 PM   #28
Sran
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

Mytran wrote: View Post
The only evidence we have for that is the clips film reel shown by the Guardian, which it used in order to manipulate Kirk and Spock into fulfilling their predestined part in extant history.
The Guardian's planet is shown with no Enterprise in the vicinity.

Mytran wrote: View Post
A communications blackout is something that even the technology in Kirk's time could accomplish. It would be a doddle for the Guardian of Forever!!!
It may be feasible for the Guardian to cause a communications blackout, but what purpose would it serve to trick Kirk and Spock into believing that their ship has been erased from existence? If the Guardian were as powerful as it claimed to be, why would the fate of a single world matter to it?

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Old July 10 2014, 06:55 AM   #29
Mytran
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

BillJ wrote: View Post
Except we know the intent was that the timeline changed and the Enterprise was gone. That was why we got the climbing shot from Kirk into an empty starscape.
Oh, I'm not arguing against the original intent. I'm just trying to look at the episode as it fits in the rest of the TOS time travel escapes, which is mostly a "you cannot change history because you are already a part of it" attitude, AKA the Novikov self-consistency principle.
(BTW I'd forgotten abou that shot, it is a lovely piece of work)

Sran wrote: View Post
The Guardian's planet is shown with no Enterprise in the vicinity.
You know that space is mostly empty, right? In any case, the shot you talking about is shown twice, once just after McCoy goes through and once just after Kirk et al have "repaired" history. Conclusion? the Enterprise could have been on the other side of the planet on either occasion.

Sran wrote: View Post
It may be feasible for the Guardian to cause a communications blackout, but what purpose would it serve to trick Kirk and Spock into believing that their ship has been erased from existence? If the Guardian were as powerful as it claimed to be, why would the fate of a single world matter to it?
The impact that Starfleet and the Federation had on the rest of the Galaxy, perhaps?

The Guardian of Forever is a tricksy beast; despite declaring its neutrality and supposed disinterest, it seems to protect the landing party from temporal changes, it uploads infomation to Spock's tricorder about the "correct" timeline (breaking the playback function in the process, I guess) and it teleports our three heroes back to their friends when their mission is complete (not to mention a costume change). I'd say there's more going on that is actually stated...
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Old July 10 2014, 07:30 AM   #30
CRM-114
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Re: TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

Greg Cox's Khan novels actually do touch on what happened to all the technology Chekov left behind. It was collected and eventually passed into a top-secret government facility where it was reversed-engineered to develop what would eventually be dubbed the Botany Bay.
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