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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 6 2014, 06:30 AM   #31
Timewalker
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Exactly who is revolting in this movie?
Everybody.
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Old July 6 2014, 07:07 AM   #32
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

They should have burned the script, Piller's orginal story was also going to be bad, they got off in the wrong direction choosing him to write it.
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Old July 6 2014, 12:50 PM   #33
Elvira
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
This is minor and has been mentioned elsewhere, but someone should say it once here: How about featuring an actual insurrection?

an act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.
Exactly who is revolting in this movie?
That ones easy, Picard and his crew. The Admiral wasn't out there on his own, he was ordered there by the Federation Council and was acting on their orders.

One of the things that would have improved the movie would have been some (at least one) of Picard command crew rebelling against Picard's actions, or at minimum trying to talk to him.

Beverly would have been the perfect choice, she really should have been on the side of the medical benefits of the particle ring being distributed to patients across the Federation. Deanna backing up Beverly on this would have been good.

Riker going head to head with Picard would have been better still.

The command crew have shown in the past that they were well able to oppose Picard viewpoints.

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Old July 6 2014, 01:26 PM   #34
Lance
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

Last Redshirt wrote:
I mean, they could've had a perfect reason for him being there. Have him be on the ship in Insurrection because the Defiant got ordered to the Briar Patch and Sisko put Worf in charge. Nemesis, have him be on board as a guest, for one last hurrah with the old crew, or because of Troi's wedding and he's touring the ship and they get the alert to go to the Neutral Zone.
Hmm. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that earlier versions of both INS and NEM offered explanations for Worf's presence -- if I recall correctly the former made some reference to Jadzia's death while the latter was something about life as an ambassador just not working out for him -- which would have been much better than what explanation we actually got (which was NOTHING ). My remembrance is that Rick Berman insisted the first explanation be cut because of international markets being a fair way behind the American broadcasts of DS9, and it contained references to things that hadn't yet happened for those viewers. In other words: "spoilers". Which is a fair point, admittedly. I can't recall why the reference in NEM was removed though. Possibly they just didn't care? He's there for the wedding and just kind of tags along. Like a puppy.
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Old July 6 2014, 04:12 PM   #35
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Silvercrest wrote: View Post
insurrection
an act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.
Exactly who is revolting in this movie?
That ones easy, Picard and his crew. The Admiral wasn't out there on his own, he was ordered there by the Federation Council and was acting on their orders.
Half a dozen people disobeying orders is not an insurrection. If you want to read it as one, you'll need to use the term that Starfleet would use. MUTINY.

The command crew have shown in the past that they were well able to oppose Picard viewpoints.
Yes, and it isn't treated as insurrection (or mutiny) when they do. Usually.
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Old July 6 2014, 04:37 PM   #36
trevanian
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

Some good ideas here, with Picard vs some crew ... I'd think you would have a running battle between Riker on E and Picard on whatever he is flying, with Picard trying to convince Riker long-distance to reconsider his position, and Riker being caught in the Weps-in-CRIMSONTIDE position of having to change his mind and side with Picard against Starfleet vessels sent in to settle matters. That's be worth the title (assuming you could offer a view that would have ME siding with Picard, which hasn't ever happened yet.) The Ba'ku have to be the most selfish people in the trekverse.
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Old July 6 2014, 05:07 PM   #37
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

Most importantly I think would be more likable protagonists. Not sure why the Ba'ku needed to be Amish immigrants rather than naturally primitive natives. Making them immigrants (rightly or wrongly) confuses the moral issue they were trying to bring up, and making them able but not willing to participate in their own defense instead of the other way around makes them unsympathetic.

Replacing the space magic with natural resources found on the surface, preferably in the plants or animals would have helped too. The sight of forrests being razed and animals slaughtered would have communicated the environmentalist message they seemed to be going for better than some plasticy toy thing stealing a planets magic rings.
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Old July 6 2014, 05:40 PM   #38
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

There are so many things wrong with Insurrection's script, but I think the thing which bugs me the most is the Bak'u themselves. Putting aside all the very good points everybody has made already, there's also the "hypnotism hypothesis", which states that they effectively brainwash Picard and his crew. We're given some talk of the unique chemical properties of the planet, but it's not without admission that the crew start to act 'funny' in the presence of the Bak'u. Heck, Picard's entire decision to throw his lot in with them comes about because Anij flirts with him a bit, but what if she's using whatever powers she has to "persuade" him to do so? The comparisons to Picard's own position in TNG: Journey's End only make the character about-turn even more obvious.

The only *real* problem with a Picard vs Riker story would be that, inevitably, one or the other of them would be left looking the dick for having taken the side they did. So you'd either get Picard pwning Riker for being such a duticious toy soldier, or else Riker... okay okay, let's face it, that's exactly what we'd get, because the script would never dare infer that Picard was the one who was in the wrong.
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Old July 6 2014, 06:39 PM   #39
Elvira
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Half a dozen people disobeying orders is not an insurrection.
The Enterprise E's complement is well over a hundred times that number. While never stated on screen, unofficial gamer and fan estimates exceed 700.

The command crew have shown in the past that they were well able to oppose Picard viewpoints.
Yes, and it isn't treated as insurrection (or mutiny) when they do. Usually.
You incredible missed the point I was making (you knew that right?). I was addressing an entirely different matter at that point in my post, a suggested change in the plot, which is the subject of this thread.

The "insurrection" would have been the Enterprise's officers and crew revolt against the official position of the Federation.

If you want to read it as one, you'll need to use the term that Starfleet would use. MUTINY
Not following the lawful orders of the Admiral might be considered mutiny, but the insurrection again would have been against the Federation itself .


Last edited by Elvira; July 6 2014 at 07:41 PM.
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Old July 6 2014, 08:33 PM   #40
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Exactly who is revolting in this movie?
Everybody.
You're revolted by the characters?

By the way, the Enterprise-E's crew already disobeyed orders in First Contact and two movies ago, it was Spock and the Enteprise-A to prevent an actual insurrection.
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Old July 6 2014, 08:49 PM   #41
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

I always felt that Insurrection should have been a start of a trilogy that ultimately exposed something rotten at the heart of the Federation. Probably Section 31 could have been involved, with a big reveal at some point that they had a secret army of genetically-enhanced supermen like Khan...

Oh wait. Never mind...
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Old July 6 2014, 11:00 PM   #42
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I always felt that Insurrection should have been a start of a trilogy that ultimately exposed something rotten at the heart of the Federation. Probably Section 31 could have been involved, with a big reveal at some point that they had a secret army of genetically-enhanced supermen like Khan...

Oh wait. Never mind...
Stewart was gung-ho to do a direct followup too ... at first.
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Old July 7 2014, 01:05 AM   #43
GalaxyX
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

trevanian wrote: View Post
Some good ideas here, with Picard vs some crew ... I'd think you would have a running battle between Riker on E and Picard on whatever he is flying, with Picard trying to convince Riker long-distance to reconsider his position, and Riker being caught in the Weps-in-CRIMSONTIDE position of having to change his mind and side with Picard against Starfleet vessels sent in to settle matters. That's be worth the title (assuming you could offer a view that would have ME siding with Picard, which hasn't ever happened yet.) The Ba'ku have to be the most selfish people in the trekverse.
They are the primary reason I hate that movie. They do not deserve sympathy or help in any way, shape or form.

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Most importantly I think would be more likable protagonists. Not sure why the Ba'ku needed to be Amish immigrants rather than naturally primitive natives. Making them immigrants (rightly or wrongly) confuses the moral issue they were trying to bring up, and making them able but not willing to participate in their own defense instead of the other way around makes them fucking assholes.

Replacing the space magic with natural resources found on the surface, preferably in the plants or animals would have helped too. The sight of forests being razed and animals slaughtered would have communicated the environmentalist message they seemed to be going for better than some plasticky toy thing stealing a planets magic rings.
Great post, just had to correct some minor points in it

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Exactly who is revolting in this movie?
Everybody.
You're revolted by the characters?

By the way, the Enterprise-E's crew already disobeyed orders in First Contact and two movies ago, it was Spock and the Enteprise-A to prevent an actual insurrection.
That is hilarious!! I remember that. Picard goes to the crew "We are about to commit a direct violation of our orders, any one who wants to complain can do so now".

So there you go, Star Trek Insurrection at First Contact.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I always felt that Insurrection should have been a start of a trilogy that ultimately exposed something rotten at the heart of the Federation. Probably Section 31 could have been involved, with a big reveal at some point that they had a secret army of genetically-enhanced supermen like Khan...

Oh wait. Never mind...
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Old July 9 2014, 06:51 PM   #44
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

Lance wrote: View Post
BillJ already completely nailed it in the very first reply of the thread:

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ditch the S'ona. Made the film Starfleet vs. Starfleet (maybe Picard vs. Riker). Return to the concept that the planet was chock full of minerals that was the basis of the Federation's medical technology. Kill off one of the characters due to not having access to the mineral.
The plot of Into Darkness was Starfleet vs. Starfleet (Kirk vs. Marcus and Khan), yet people hated it.
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Old July 9 2014, 09:33 PM   #45
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Re: What could have improved 'Insurrection'?

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
BillJ already completely nailed it in the very first reply of the thread:

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ditch the S'ona. Made the film Starfleet vs. Starfleet (maybe Picard vs. Riker). Return to the concept that the planet was chock full of minerals that was the basis of the Federation's medical technology. Kill off one of the characters due to not having access to the mineral.
The plot of Into Darkness was Starfleet vs. Starfleet (Kirk vs. Marcus and Khan), yet people hated it.
Well, some people hated it. But it seems like more people liked than disliked Into Darkness.
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