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Old July 2 2014, 11:53 AM   #1
Melakon
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Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

I have several problems with Demons/Terra Prime, but I'll not bother with them at this point.

What I don't understand is why Paxton chose T'Pol and Tucker as donor cells for his Mutant Offspring. It seems a little too coincidental that he chose two people already in a relationship even they weren't sure about.

To me, it would seem more logical to make Archer the donor father, due to his high profile in the public eye as ship's captain. While watching the episode, I was watching for some reason as to why Tucker was specifically selected, but if it's mentioned anywhere, I missed it.

So at the moment for me, it seems like it's just writers' manipulation of the audience, and rather clumsily at that.
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Old July 2 2014, 12:05 PM   #2
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

It happened in Home. A member of the V'Shar was actually a double agent, a human with Terra Prime sympathies whose time undercover on Vulcan only strengthened his disgust with the species. The intention all along was to create a human/Vulcan hybrid, to show earth what monstrosities awaited them if they continued on their multi-cultural trajectory. An Enterprise crewperson was always intended as the human half of the clone as Enterprise was seen to be at the forefront of Earths terrible mistake. Something happened that put the timeframe for the start of this clone under pressure and the V'Shar double agent was recruited to obtain the samples from Trip. That the other half was also an Enterprise crewperson was considered a bonus.
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Old July 2 2014, 12:06 PM   #3
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

As chance would have it, I was typing what teacake said at the same time. So, I'm editing my answer just to say I concur with her statement.
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Old July 2 2014, 12:48 PM   #4
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

That's what I get for not watching the three episodes all on the same day. Watched "Demons" yesterday, and "Home" about 3 days ago.

Thanks for clearing the cobwebs. Now I'll have to watch "Home" again, because all I remember is that Romulan dude.
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Old July 2 2014, 12:58 PM   #5
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

Apologies to whoever said this in another thread. (Too lazy to go look it up lol) It's apparent from Mayweathers former love that the 4th estate is still alive and kicking at this point in history. While not shown on the show, one can only imagine the media coverage of the crew of the Enterprise, Savior of All Humanity (TM) received after her return home.

Previous episodes mentioned the crew speculating on the nature of the TnT relationship. Indeed there was the one memorable scene of TnT discussing those same rumors. That one of the crew spoke to someone in the media and that information (which played perfectly in the terrorists plans) was used to choose the best target for this plot seems the best explanation of why Trip was chosen.

That the foundation for this choice was laid out in multiple episodes leading up to this one while not being specifically spelled out for the audience is one of the many examples of the writing in season 4 being far superior to what had gone before.
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Old July 2 2014, 01:04 PM   #6
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

That may be, but it's another example of why I don't like serialized television that requires you to remember something from weeks or months earlier.
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Old July 2 2014, 01:12 PM   #7
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

Melakon wrote: View Post
That's what I get for not watching the three episodes all on the same day. Watched "Demons" yesterday, and "Home" about 3 days ago.

Thanks for clearing the cobwebs. Now I'll have to watch "Home" again, because all I remember is that Romulan dude.
Just for the record, I made all that stuff up.
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Old July 2 2014, 01:31 PM   #8
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

Hmmm. Yeah, you would. Especially just to mess with me.
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Old July 2 2014, 07:29 PM   #9
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

Melakon wrote: View Post
What I don't understand is why Paxton chose T'Pol and Tucker as donor cells for his Mutant Offspring. It seems a little too coincidental that he chose two people already in a relationship even they weren't sure about.

To me, it would seem more logical to make Archer the donor father, due to his high profile in the public eye as ship's captain. While watching the episode, I was watching for some reason as to why Tucker was specifically selected, but if it's mentioned anywhere, I missed it.
T'Polismygirl wrote: View Post
Apologies to whoever said this in another thread. (Too lazy to go look it up lol) It's apparent from Mayweathers former love that the 4th estate is still alive and kicking at this point in history. While not shown on the show, one can only imagine the media coverage of the crew of the Enterprise, Savior of All Humanity (TM) received after her return home.

Previous episodes mentioned the crew speculating on the nature of the TnT relationship. Indeed there was the one memorable scene of TnT discussing those same rumors. That one of the crew spoke to someone in the media and that information (which played perfectly in the terrorists plans) was used to choose the best target for this plot seems the best explanation of why Trip was chosen.

That the foundation for this choice was laid out in multiple episodes leading up to this one while not being specifically spelled out for the audience is one of the many examples of the writing in season 4 being far superior to what had gone before.
Tpolsmygirl has the answer. The o/p's question was the subject of a huge debate here when the episode first aired. Those debates of course were veiled shipper battles.

There is also evidence that the public was aware of the T/T romance. This is shown in Borderlands when Dr. Soong apparently is aware of the relationship -- and he was in prison. Paxton needed the baby's creation to appear to be completely normal in order to "scare" the public into believing that alien prsence and interaction with them, could "wipe out" the human race. It was easier to sell the baby as completely normal as the product of two people who most knew or thought, were in a romantic relationship.

Involving Archer, who no one (except the most imaginative ) knew or thought was in a relationship with T'Pol might have raised suspicions that the baby was artificially created, which, in a way, she was.

Melakon wrote: View Post
That may be, but it's another example of why I don't like serialized television that requires you to remember something from weeks or months earlier.
Most shows have at least addressed this problem by showing a comprehensive "previously on", at the show's start. You have to watch carefully, though.

teacake wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
That's what I get for not watching the three episodes all on the same day. Watched "Demons" yesterday, and "Home" about 3 days ago.

Thanks for clearing the cobwebs. Now I'll have to watch "Home" again, because all I remember is that Romulan dude.
Just for the record, I made all that stuff up.
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Old July 2 2014, 07:43 PM   #10
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

^ teacake's always doing that to me.
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Old July 2 2014, 09:24 PM   #11
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

I asume Paxton chose Tucker and T'Pol since they are both in the spotlights already, celebs almost.

Shit like this is always eaten up as icecreams by the masses when celebs are involved. And Enterprise established that we still need a bit of growing up to do in the 22nd century, since some of us are still simple-minded bigots by then. So I asume mindless slaves to the media still excist as well. And when a charismatic moron comes along spouting words of hatred, involving a 'monster' created by two heroes, people just love that.

Stupid thing is, I just said all that, but I can't even remember from the episode of Paxton even mentioned Trip and T'Pol in his speech to Earth.
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Old July 2 2014, 10:17 PM   #12
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

Melakon wrote: View Post
That may be, but it's another example of why I don't like serialized television that requires you to remember something from weeks or months earlier.
As opposed to non serialised television where you can wreck the ship in one episode yet the very next episode it looks like it just left the construction yard?

Both episodic and serialised shows have their advantages and disadvantages.
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Old July 2 2014, 11:00 PM   #13
2takesfrakes
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

Considering how this was so close to the end of the series, would it have been so aweful to just give Trip a break and let someone named "Elizabeth" in his family live, for once? Having this infant character expire served the story only to underline how Paxton and his men were basically clueless thugs. AND for the tear-jerker aspect, of course. But otherwise, it would not have hurt the story to have Elizabeth live. In fact, Phlox would've already been granted his request to "have 'something' good come out of" her situation.

And then, in THESE ARE the VOYAGES, to have Shran have this daughter, like ... out of a clear, blue sky ... and with some woman we never really knew he got with, made NO sense, when there was already another daughter who should've been a part of the story. And if they didn't want Trip and T'Pol to end up happliy ever after, where they were talking about which one of them would get Elizabeth and all this ... it just would've added to the texture of their relationship, such as it was. Whilst I'm not all that surprised, for the show to just kill the kid off, because she was just a plot device was very disappointing.
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Old July 2 2014, 11:15 PM   #14
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Considering how this was so close to the end of the series, would it have been so aweful to just give Trip a break and let someone named "Elizabeth" in his family live, for once? Having this infant character expire served the story only to underline how Paxton and his men were basically clueless thugs. AND for the tear-jerker aspect, of course. But otherwise, it would not have hurt the story to have Elizabeth live. In fact, Phlox would've already been granted his request to "have 'something' good come out of" her situation.

And then, in THESE ARE the VOYAGES, to have Shran have this daughter, like ... out of a clear, blue sky ... and with some woman we never really knew he got with, made NO sense, when there was already another daughter who should've been a part of the story. And if they didn't want Trip and T'Pol to end up happliy ever after, where they were talking about which one of them would get Elizabeth and all this ... it just would've added to the texture of their relationship, such as it was. Whilst I'm not all that surprised, for the show to just kill the kid off, because she was just a plot device was very disappointing.
As opposed to Kirk having a son out of the blue with some woman we didn't really know?
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Old July 2 2014, 11:23 PM   #15
Melakon
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Re: Terra Prime's Baby Elizabeth

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
That may be, but it's another example of why I don't like serialized television that requires you to remember something from weeks or months earlier.
As opposed to non serialised television where you can wreck the ship in one episode yet the very next episode it looks like it just left the construction yard?
That type of thing has never bothered me, but it may be because I grew with episodic television.

I always saw weekly television shows as a type of short story in a familiar setting. Movies were like books for me, a self-contained story within a 2 or 3 hour running time. I've never been a fan of serialized television episodes, especially if it's something where the story is spread over an entire year or multiple years.

I disliked the year-long Xindi arc. Season 4 was closer to a form I could accept, with its 3-part episodes. But please don't be asking me to remember something 6 episodes earlier if it's not part of the current 3-part arc.
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