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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 9 2014, 04:20 PM   #226
Search4
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

RandyS wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I actually like the "D" because it looked unique while still looking like a Star Trek ship.
This is the crux of my preference for the D.

People complain about it being front heavy externally, or being overlit/beige/like a cruise ship internally, but to me that's what gave it some of its character, some life beyond the stodgy utilitarism of simply being a ship-of-the-line. Things like the wooden rail on the bridge, homely things.

The 1701-E, it didn't have any of that. Nor did it replace it with anything else. It just felt... sterile. Functional, but without character.

The more hard-edged angle taken by the Enterprise E's design is such a complete 180 from the 1701-D's design philosophy, that I honestly couldn't help feeling that something iconic about The Next Generation was actually missing in those last three movies. The actors were all there, but the spirit was lacking. The presence of 1701-E (or more particularly some of the decisions made on the drawing board during the design of the ship) was a big factor in that. 1701-D had an unique ambiance all its own which was as much a part of the TV show's success as anything else, and which the 1701-E lacked. IMO.
I agree with all of this. There was simply no good reason for the D to be destroyed. But, if they absolutely had to do it, they could have at least made the E an identical Galaxy class ship.
I am completely convinced that if they reused the "D", fans would be screaming about how they copied the TOS movies and the studio cheapened out.

You just can't win!
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Old July 9 2014, 04:22 PM   #227
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

I'd have preferred a refit of the D.

I'm never asked.
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Old July 9 2014, 04:27 PM   #228
Mytran
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

BeatleJWOL wrote: View Post
Happy now? You got another entire page of "discussion" which has once again drawn to a close via your thesis statement:
"I'm right, you're wrong, neener neener."
Well, three quarters of a page, anyway. The remaining quarter doesn't actually engage with the subject matter, merely deride it.

Dennis wrote: View Post
I'd have preferred a refit of the D.

I'm never asked.
At the time of GEN, my friends and I worried that if they had kept the E-D on in the movies it would have modified and updated (like the E-A Bridge) in every movie until it became a former shadow of itself. For better or for worse, at least the E-E spared us that.
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Old July 9 2014, 04:28 PM   #229
starburst
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Temporal violations notwithstanding, it would have made a great story. I hope that because of the cooperation between the Federation and the Romulans before the Dominion War, Picard saw to it that the Enterprise-C survivors were released and the Federation finally learned what had actually happened at the Battle of Narendra III.

Mytran, you are next…

Bob
Thats assuming that after all that time any of them were left alive... I imagine however if there were any the latest they would have been released would have been shortly after the events of Nemesis.

Although you would think the revelation of Sela's existence would have been relayed at least secretly to Starfleet so they may have been released during the War.

Search4 wrote: View Post

I am completely convinced that if they reused the "D", fans would be screaming about how they copied the TOS movies and the studio cheapened out.

You just can't win!
Agreed, ILM at least considered the possibility (possibly due to STIV) and took the time to change the registry on the model.

The main problem would have been the much larger Galaxy Class ship would not have fit through the vortex before it collapsed (jk, they would have made the effect larger).

That photoshop of Picard in his FC-NEM uniform on the Generations(?) bridge does look good though!

When it comes to the C model I wonder if we would be discussing what to me appears to be fairly abstract silhouettes of previous as well as the current Enterprise if they had updated the model as of the series finale.

The Enterprise B on the wall to me doesn't look exactly like the Excelsior never mind the modified version.
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Old July 9 2014, 04:37 PM   #230
Ithekro
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

The Enterprise-E is built for a different time, for a different set of political problems than the Enterprise-C or Enterprise-D. THe Enterprise-C seems to be built in a flux between Starfleet coming away from the need to defend the borders constantly against the Klingons and Romulans, and towards an era where they can just go explore space. However there were still threats from the Cardassians looming, so the Ambassador-class still has a bit of military utility to it.

The Enterprise-D and the Galaxy-class are designed in the wake of an Alliance with the Klingons (not just a peace), the Romulans are basically quiet, and the Cardassians are more or less contained. There are other issues with races, but they are all minor and isolated by comparison to the days of the Klingons and Romulans being ready to pounce over the Neutral Zones. The Galaxy-class was to be the explorer's explorer. The comfortable ship that takes the Federation out into distance space to spead their culture to a thousand worlds. The relative small number insisted by Roddenbery would means that these would be uncommon luxurty explorers for the best in the fleet.

But things never follow to plan. By the 10 years after the launch of the Enterprise-D there seem to have been at least a dozen Galaxy-class ships and the fleet is able to concetrate into two fleets for combat actions against the Dominion. And withing five years of tha, to have seven parked near Sol for who knows what reason.

The Enterprise-E was built for combat.
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Old July 9 2014, 05:00 PM   #231
BillJ
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

Ithekro wrote: View Post
The Enterprise-E is built for a different time...

The Enterprise-E was built for combat.
But these represent the biggest problems with the 'E' and the movies in general: that wasn't why people watched every week. They kicked the formula that worked for TNG to the curb, in favor of dark, combat oriented fare with action-Picard.
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Old July 9 2014, 05:14 PM   #232
Ithekro
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

Sign of the times mixed with the continuing trend in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

First Contact takes place (by the stardate) just a short time before the Dominion War begins. Within months at best. Meaning Starfleet is gearing up for war and the Enterprise-E is only about a year old.

Insurrection takes place during the Dominon War (why they even bothered with this side plot type story when there is a war on and Enterprise is designed like a warship and its crew are probably some of the better combat veterens, I don't understand).

Only Nemesis takes place after the war, and by then the ship simply exists. Starfleet hasn't fully demobilized yet as they are able to gather up a small task force to support USS Enterprise (though they are too far away do to a tactical miscalculation on Picard's part). One could imagine that in the post-Nemesis refit of the Enterprise-E, they might start to tone the military feel down and return to the Enterprise-D internal design asthetic.
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Old July 9 2014, 05:37 PM   #233
Robert Comsol
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

BeatleJWOL wrote: View Post
"I'm right, you're wrong, neener neener."
Sorry, but that's incorrect. I presented observations and evidence on behalf of a different theory.

What happened: The statements of the protagonists Guinan and Sela were double-guessed ("that's not what they meant to say", "Guinan is unreliable", "We can't trust Sela") and others felt that the intentions and statements of screenplay writer and director ("Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Redemption"!) were irrelevant and of no concern or that my definition of a "meaningful death" is wrong.

If treknological research were unbiased, I know I'm "right" that such evidence has to be admitted.

And since Dukhat mentioned disservice to oneself, I think King Daniel just illustrated an ultimate example on his behalf (applause!)

Ever since you used that avatar with Robert Orci wearing a bishop's hat I had this eerie feeling: Why don't we just exchange Starfleet ranks for religious ones, i.e. "Admiral" is now "Bishop".

Too bad, you can't excommunicate the ones like me, so instead you mock them in the best possible derrogatory way at your disposal. Normally I would have now alerted a moderator, but I think it's better to leave it as it is showing your real face.

Bob
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Old July 9 2014, 05:39 PM   #234
BillJ
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

Ithekro wrote: View Post
Sign of the times mixed with the continuing trend in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
But they essentially turned their back on millions of people who watched and liked TNG for what it was. For all the flack I give TNG, the films are terrible by comparison and don't even vaguely resemble the TV series in tone or characterization.
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Old July 9 2014, 05:58 PM   #235
Cyke101
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

Ithekro wrote: View Post
Sign of the times mixed with the continuing trend in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

First Contact takes place (by the stardate) just a short time before the Dominion War begins. Within months at best. Meaning Starfleet is gearing up for war and the Enterprise-E is only about a year old.

Insurrection takes place during the Dominon War (why they even bothered with this side plot type story when there is a war on and Enterprise is designed like a warship and its crew are probably some of the better combat veterens, I don't understand).

Only Nemesis takes place after the war, and by then the ship simply exists. Starfleet hasn't fully demobilized yet as they are able to gather up a small task force to support USS Enterprise (though they are too far away do to a tactical miscalculation on Picard's part). One could imagine that in the post-Nemesis refit of the Enterprise-E, they might start to tone the military feel down and return to the Enterprise-D internal design asthetic.
I'd have to concur with BillJ. The movies could have been whatever they wanted, and they went down a route that's unlike the TV show. DS9's identity was war, that's true; but Voyager's wasn't and it was of the same era (and the writers could have easily given Voyager their equivalent of the Dominion but chose not to, which is perfectly fine).

Indeed, the fact that the movies only mention the war in the margins means that the film makers weren't concerned with it in the first place, only mentioning it as nods to the fans and to acknowledge the greater universe. But with that said, that also means there's less reason to divide TNG the movies from TNG the show, and they did it anyway.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:07 PM   #236
doubleohfive
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

Each Enterprise, as presented on screen, were all just fine.

This fan mentality of "correcting" things is really getting out of hand, which I think, reached it's disappointing apex with Doug Drexler's update of the NX-01 to add the entirely unnecesary secondary hull to the ship.

Likewise, I'm not asked.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:10 PM   #237
Mytran
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

The TNG movies were sold as "action" flicks, since that's what brings in the "big bucks". A shame that that is not what made TNG great and popular.

On the other hand, it was plain by season 7 that the creative team were running out of ideas. Maybe popcorn stuffing action films were all they had left?

I've never been a fan of the E-E and its overdecorated busy busy surface, but it does have the "look" of an actiony ship I suppose.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:10 PM   #238
Dennis
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Sorry, but that's incorrect. I presented observations and evidence on behalf of a different theory.
Sorry, but that's incorrect. What you present is not a theory; it's a chain of rationalizations based on premises that are agreeable to you and that are chosen to lead to a desired conclusion.

It shouldn't be surprising, therefore, that other people who have no investment in that conclusion or who dislike it have no trouble at all in successfully challenging the premises and the logic and thereby disposing of the conclusion.

Since it's all make-believe, of course, one story is as "true" as another and you're at perfect liberty to like and to hold onto your version.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:21 PM   #239
Cyke101
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
Each Enterprise, as presented on screen, were all just fine.

This fan mentality of "correcting" things is really getting out of hand, which I think, reached it's disappointing apex with Doug Drexler's update of the NX-01 to add the entirely unnecesary secondary hull to the ship.

Likewise, I'm not asked.
I think there'd be a lot more tolerance of the NX-01 had it not simply been an upside-down Akira, something the powers that be acknowledged that that's what it was. They commanded Drexler to just take the Akira and remove the 24th-century elements from it.
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Old July 9 2014, 06:22 PM   #240
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Re: The Enterprise-E is so ugly

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
Each Enterprise, as presented on screen, were all just fine.

This fan mentality of "correcting" things is really getting out of hand, which I think, reached it's disappointing apex with Doug Drexler's update of the NX-01 to add the entirely unnecesary secondary hull to the ship.

Likewise, I'm not asked.
I think there'd be a lot more tolerance of the NX-01 had it not simply been an upside-down Akira, something the powers that be acknowledged that that's what it was.
I still like the actual televised version better than the Drexler update.
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