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Old June 24 2014, 04:20 AM   #16
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

I think the most blatant example of this "smugness" was in The Neutral Zone, in dealing with the three twentieth century survivors of the old cryogenics ship. I remember thinking it was a perfect set-up for a Star Trek meets The Twilight Zone type story, where Picard or Riker then find themselves waking up three centuries ahead of their own time, and are treated with the same type of condescension and aloofness that they themselves had administered to the twentieth century folks!
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Old June 24 2014, 04:44 AM   #17
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

Paul Weaver wrote: View Post
Sure there were incidents (Tomed incident for instance), and skirmishes with the Cardassians ...
Picard: "Evek, the last war caused massive destruction and cost millions of lives. Don't send our two peoples back down that same path again."

Skirmishes? Sound more like a hell of a major war.

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Kirk was far more worldly than Picard.
Kirk was a killer, who didn't kill today.



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Old June 24 2014, 04:49 AM   #18
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Kirk was a killer, who didn't kill today.
Exactly. He understood who we were, who we are, and who we could be again, without the conscious effort to be something more. And he had a compassion for the downtrodden that's hard not to be inspired by.
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Old June 24 2014, 03:49 PM   #19
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Kirk was far more worldly than Picard.
Kirk was a killer, who didn't kill today.
Exactly. He understood who we were, who we are, and who we could be again, without the conscious effort to be something more. And he had a compassion for the downtrodden that's hard not to be inspired by.
Kirk's line in A Taste of Armageddon is one of my favorites:

"[War] is instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands! But we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill - today!"
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Old June 24 2014, 04:19 PM   #20
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

For comparison, we have Wesley:

I'm with Star Fleet; we don't lie.
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Old June 24 2014, 04:25 PM   #21
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
For comparison, we have Wesley:

I'm with Star Fleet; we don't lie.
Well, that did come from the mouth of a very naive 15 year old who only saw Starfleet from rose-colored glasses (i.e. his mother, father, and Picard).

I wonder if he would have ever asked, as a Starfleet officer, how the Romulans became temporary allies of the Federation during the Dominion War?

Come to think of it, it would have been interesting to see Wesley on DS9...
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Old June 24 2014, 04:43 PM   #22
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post

I have to admit, even though I was a fan of TNG for most of its run, I never found any of the regular characters to be truly likeable. And pompous self-righteousness was by far their most annoying shared characteristic.
I think this is truly the biggest difference between Star Trek and its spin-offs. Even in bad episodes of TOS there is a chemistry that is worth watching between Kirk, Spock and McCoy that simply doesn't exist in the later shows.

Bad TOS episodes still have a "rewatchability" factor that the later shows don't.
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Old June 24 2014, 04:46 PM   #23
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Shat Happens wrote: View Post
For comparison, we have Wesley:

I'm with Star Fleet; we don't lie.
Well, that did come from the mouth of a very naive 15 year old who only saw Starfleet from rose-colored glasses (i.e. his mother, father, and Picard).

I wonder if he would have ever asked, as a Starfleet officer, how the Romulans became temporary allies of the Federation during the Dominion War?

Come to think of it, it would have been interesting to see Wesley on DS9...
We know that the "we don't lie" Wesley was simply naive. All one has to do is watch "The First Duty". Picard may yammer on about the truth, but at the end of the day, Starfleet lies and covers things up.

Does anyone think that Starfleet went to the media and told them that one of the Federations longest serving Ambassadors was a Romulan spy?
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Old June 24 2014, 05:31 PM   #24
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

^^^ or that the upper echelons of the Admiralty were infiltrated by brain-hacking bugs in "Conspiracy" or shape-shifting aliens during the Dominion War?

Yes, Starfleet is just as ruthless as any major power and is willing to act accordingly in order to maintain its existence, with ends always justifying the means. Turning a blind "necessary evil" eye upon the likes of Section 31 while espousing freedom and a transparent democracy was the final proof of that agenda.

I, too, found Picard's early arrogance about humaniy to be insufferably sanctimonious. It's almost like all of Starfleet was made up of Prius drivers in love with the smell of their own flatulence (South Park reference)! And to my great surprise, this thread has actually provided me with a new appreciation for the pilot - something I thought impossible - almost casting Q in the role of a hero, kicking the Feds in the ass to snap them out of their century-old self-important delusion. Following up that kick with a punch in the gut with the Borg was definitely what it took to show our protagonists that they weren't all that and a bag of chips.

Was that Roddenberry's idea all along, or did he truly believe the humans had really come that far by the 24th century and were justified in their arrogance?

And in the final circle of poetic justice, it took the Borg (with exposition by Lilly) in First Contact to demonstrate to Picard just how much a line of bullshit his "evolved sensibility" really was all along. A brilliant arc, if you ask me...
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Old June 24 2014, 06:57 PM   #25
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

BillJ wrote: View Post
Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post

I have to admit, even though I was a fan of TNG for most of its run, I never found any of the regular characters to be truly likeable. And pompous self-righteousness was by far their most annoying shared characteristic.
I think this is truly the biggest difference between Star Trek and its spin-offs. Even in bad episodes of TOS there is a chemistry that is worth watching between Kirk, Spock and McCoy that simply doesn't exist in the later shows.

Bad TOS episodes still have a "rewatchability" factor that the later shows don't.
That's probably because the characters still talk like human beings, even though they are decades in the future. Even the Chris Pine version of Kirk listens to Beastie Boys and drives fast cars (when he shouldn't) with a Nokia phone installed. And, nuUhura is the popular hot chick from high school you dream of dating...but she's already taken by another (i.e. in this case, a high ranking officer).

(I can almost imagine a lovestruck officer coming onto the bridge to give Lt. Uhura a loveletter for lunch in the mess hall when she's off...haha)

The TOS characters are relatable, but they're from the future. If they were put in our time, like Kirk and crew from Star Trek IV, they would wonder how we got on without the use of technology...and certain advancements? (Kind of like kids who are now growing up on the internet and smartphones, etc.)
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Old June 24 2014, 07:41 PM   #26
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Even the Chris Pine version of Kirk listens to Beastie Boys and drives fast cars (when he shouldn't) with a Nokia phone installed.
Why shouldn't he? This version of the character seems to have spent more time on Earth than his prime universe counterpart. I might have learned to play piano if my Mom hadn't died at while I was young and that may have had an impact on my life.
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Old June 24 2014, 07:55 PM   #27
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ or that the upper echelons of the Admiralty were infiltrated by brain-hacking bugs in "Conspiracy" or shape-shifting aliens during the Dominion War?

Yes, Starfleet is just as ruthless as any major power and is willing to act accordingly in order to maintain its existence
The Conspiracy bugs and the Founders were outside infiltrators and their actions can't be attributed to Starfleet as a whole.

Also, do you seriously think that Starfleet is as ruthless as the Borg, or the Dominion, or the Cardassians, or the Klingons?
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Old June 24 2014, 07:59 PM   #28
137th Gebirg
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ or that the upper echelons of the Admiralty were infiltrated by brain-hacking bugs in "Conspiracy" or shape-shifting aliens during the Dominion War?

Yes, Starfleet is just as ruthless as any major power and is willing to act accordingly in order to maintain its existence
The Conspiracy bugs and the Founders were outside infiltrators and their actions can't be attributed to Starfleet as a whole.
Yes, but the point was that the Federation executive branch probably never publically admitted to being infiltrated from said outside forces, either to keep its citizenry from panicking, or to keep its enemies from perceiving it as week - or both. At least, not that has been ever seen on-screen. The books might have some additional information on this front.

Also, do you seriously think that Starfleet is as ruthless as the Borg, or the Dominion, or the Cardassians, or the Klingons?
Certain aspects of it, yes (although I don't think including the Borg there is quite fair in this context - their motivations and goals are a bit different than the other non-assimilated races of the galaxy) - and inwardly, not so obvious on the outside. When you think about it, that makes it much more insidious. At least the other powers who have such organizations are up-front with their existence. Section 31 is the ex-felon uncle in the Federation family that nobody wants to talk about. How many Fed citizens really know of its existence and, more importantly, what it does in the name of preservation of their way of life?

Odo summed it up nicely when he pointed out that the Cardassians had the Obsidian Order and the Romulans had the Tal'Shiar - it made sense that any great power would have such an organization. Whether it's right or wrong is an entirely different debate and up to individual interpretation.
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Old June 24 2014, 08:08 PM   #29
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
I, too, found Picard's early arrogance about humaniy to be insufferably sanctimonious. It's almost like all of Starfleet was made up of Prius drivers in love with the smell of their own flatulence (South Park reference)! And to my great surprise, this thread has actually provided me with a new appreciation for the pilot - something I thought impossible - almost casting Q in the role of a hero, kicking the Feds in the ass to snap them out of their century-old self-important delusion. Following up that kick with a punch in the gut with the Borg was definitely what it took to show our protagonists that they weren't all that and a bag of chips.
That has really been Q's job every time he appeared in TNG, IMO. Q recognized that 24th-Century Humans had potential for greatness, but definitely weren't there yet and relished in showing them that fact.
Was that Roddenberry's idea all along, or did he truly believe the humans had really come that far by the 24th century and were justified in their arrogance?
Kind of hard to say. With most things, ideas started by one writer are carried in another direction by another. But I think in the beginning, there was a clear attempt to show that Humanity had improved by the 24th-Century, but it may have been bragged about too many times by Picard and others (while downplaying--if not outright overlooking--the flaws Humanity still had).
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Old June 24 2014, 08:10 PM   #30
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Re: Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

sbk1234 wrote: View Post
I figured that much of this was simply Picard posturing for an alien species which whom he was trying to make a point and do some bluffing.
I would like to think so. If Picard was insulting Q, personally, and not the military as such, I'd have no problem with it.

Meaning: If it had been just some random soldier from the 20th century, I'd hope that Picard - arrogant as he is - would not have insulted them and their service, like he did with Q.

Besides, as we'd later learn, there were plenty of Picard ancestors who served in the military. Weren't there?
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