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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 25 2014, 01:43 AM   #31
Greg Cox
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
ChristopherPike wrote: View Post
Images should've flashed by of a dark-haired younger Marcus boarding the Botany Bay with a security team
Marcus would have been, what, a year younger? He would probably look pretty much the same.

Greg Cox wrote:
I don't know. I still think it would be jarring to see a clip of Montalban in the rebooted Trek. "Hey, just when you're getting used to the new Trek, we're going show you a clip from the old version with the other actors."
By the same token, just when the audience is getting used to the new Spock, it should be jarring to see Leonard Nimoy.
Perhaps, but I think the massive age discrepancy between Nimoy and Quinto mitigates against that. Any differences between Quinto and Nimoy can be chalked up to the fact that one is very visibly much older. Heck, even Nimoy doesn't look like TOS-era Nimoy anymore.

You'll note that they didn't include any flashbacks from TOS in the mind-meld scene in the 2009 movie. Possibly so that we wouldn't be distracted by shots of the young Shatner and Nimoy.
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Old June 25 2014, 03:30 AM   #32
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

Ovation wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post

Greg Cox wrote: View Post

A willing suspension of disbelief can go a long ways . . . .


+1000
True of any fiction. Like Huck Finn just happening to show up at Aunt Polly's, and who else is there? Why, it's Tom Sawyer. Or Jim escaping slavery by going deeper into the south instead of north?

One must believe in suspension of disbelief.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
ChristopherPike wrote: View Post
Images should've flashed by of a dark-haired younger Marcus boarding the Botany Bay with a security team
Marcus would have been, what, a year younger? He would probably look pretty much the same.

Greg Cox wrote:
I don't know. I still think it would be jarring to see a clip of Montalban in the rebooted Trek. "Hey, just when you're getting used to the new Trek, we're going show you a clip from the old version with the other actors."
By the same token, just when the audience is getting used to the new Spock, it should be jarring to see Leonard Nimoy.
Perhaps, but I think the massive age discrepancy between Nimoy and Quinto mitigates against that. Any differences between Quinto and Nimoy can be chalked up to the fact that one is very visibly much older. Heck, even Nimoy doesn't look like TOS-era Nimoy anymore.

You'll note that they didn't include any flashbacks from TOS in the mind-meld scene in the 2009 movie. Possibly so that we wouldn't be distracted by shots of the young Shatner and Nimoy.
Besides, Shatner's 1960s image doesn't do cameos, either.
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Old June 25 2014, 09:34 AM   #33
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

I'm all for suspension of disbelief, and the ship crew casting totally works for me. It's the fact that they made NO effort to make this Khan resemble the original in looks or performance. They have gone to great lengths to intertwine and integrate 'canon' with the stories in this new universe, then go and do this with one Trek's most famous characters, it just came across as just wrong.

If these films were a total 'reboot' like the Batman films I couldn't give a toss, but they're not. They should respect the source material more or have have done totally new films.
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Old June 25 2014, 02:14 PM   #34
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

Franklin wrote: View Post
Besides, Shatner's 1960s image doesn't do cameos, either.
Only in X-Men films.
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Old June 25 2014, 03:24 PM   #35
ChristopherPike
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

The thing is, Shatner did come very close to appearing in Star Trek 2009... they wrote a scene involving a hologram of him belonging to Nimoy Spock. Supposedly used as a way of reinforcing to the younger Spock that they would become friends. And had Shatner said yes, you can bet they would've totally have included it in the film's final scenes. It was his reluctance to a cameo and less involvement than Nimoy that quashed it. Not the filmmakers unwillingness to invite comparisons between the original and younger version recasts. The new actors were very carefully thought about when they were chosen, and came with the approval of the originals or their son in a certain case. By enlarge it's the alternative universe lives that have been occasionally criticised (again rationalised onscreen particularly in Kirk's case) and not that they don't bear any likeness. So Khan remains the odd one out, even alongside yet another recast addition, Carol Marcus... whose English accent, again explained... albeit in a deleted scene. So, it's deliberate change in approach for Khan only, in a film continuing to be consistent in other areas.


I still think a blink and you'll miss it glimpse of a very different Khan, some disorientating flashbacks of Marcus finding Botany Bay, some futuristic medics busying themselves around that one unconscious person and Cumberbatch awaking, wouldn't have hurt a thing. It would've meant a lot to those who like such hidden easter eggs. All the while the exposition is coming thick and fast in the brig, with Kirk and Spock trying take it all in... it's just one more thing to hammer his real identity home. Better than... just off to one side... a prolonged, extreme closeup of the actor twisting and contorting his expressions. I'm still not sure whether they applied somekind of morphing effect to his face there, to be honest. Or if that's all the actor's doing. Pretty unsettling either way!
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Old June 25 2014, 06:29 PM   #36
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

I think that would have been great too, it didn't have to be particularly detailed it could have been like the Wolverine stuff in X2
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Old June 25 2014, 10:47 PM   #37
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

Smellmet wrote: View Post
I'm all for suspension of disbelief, and the ship crew casting totally works for me. It's the fact that they made NO effort to make this Khan resemble the original in looks or performance. They have gone to great lengths to intertwine and integrate 'canon' with the stories in this new universe, then go and do this with one Trek's most famous characters, it just came across as just wrong.
I didn't even like ID, but I didn't give two shits about Cumberbatch not resembling the original Khan. I actually wish they'd done the same thing with Spock, given us a Spock that wasn't quite so familiar. Kinda hard to do with Nimoy in the movie playing an older version of Spock, but I'd like the Spock character to recalim a little bit of the wonder and mystery he must have had for audiences in the 60s and 70s.

Personally, I wish Cumberbatch had been cast as Spock, and that he looked as Spock exactly as he looked in ID as Khan, with the addition of some pointed ears.
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Old June 26 2014, 02:41 PM   #38
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

Except that they did give us a Spock that wasn't quite so familiar. One that has lost his mother, his home world, and by the looks of it his control over his emotions too.
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Old June 29 2014, 01:34 AM   #39
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

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The scene focused on Cumberbatch's crying face for absolutely ages could've benefitted from being broken up and cut away from.
yes exactly...had his VO over the flashback scenes..
Maybe? But then all I can think about is the hatchet job the director's cut of The Undiscovered Country was. With the faces of the conspirators popping up in the middle of what was a very emotional scene.

I think I'd rather keep the flashbacks out of Into Darkness.
The TUC flashbacks were awful IMO, because we got nothing new... just misty images pulled from elsewhere in the film. Very jarring.


I have not seen nor read the comic explanation for Khan's change. Was an explanation also provided for the change in voice?

Again, I'd rather not have any of this. I'd rather just accept Cumberbatch as nuKhan. He grows on me every time I watch.

As for the name Khan not belonging to a man who looks like Cumberbatch, please tell me why exactly this is a problem??? Who is to judge that an ethnic name must associate to an ethnic appearance? It's just not true, not even today.
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Old June 29 2014, 03:24 PM   #40
Set Harth
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
I have not seen nor read the comic explanation for Khan's change. Was an explanation also provided for the change in voice?
Yes.


austen_pierce wrote: View Post
Again, I'd rather not have any of this. I'd rather just accept Cumberbatch as nuKhan.
But are accepting Cumberbatch and accepting the comic to be seen as mutually exclusive propositions? Khan predates the change in the timeline which created the Abramsverse.

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
As for the name Khan not belonging to a man who looks like Cumberbatch, please tell me why exactly this is a problem???
Because no one would ever look at Cumberbatch and think, "Probably from northern India."
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Old June 29 2014, 04:09 PM   #41
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

that 'scene' reminded me of Face/Off and Die Another Day..

would've been awesome live action in the brig scene...

wonder why they got rid of his hair? did S31 alter his hair type too? in the movie I assumed it was meant to be unaltered 'Khan Prime' hair just cut shorter
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Old June 29 2014, 04:11 PM   #42
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
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I have not seen nor read the comic explanation for Khan's change. Was an explanation also provided for the change in voice?
Yes.

Thank you for posting. So the comic changes both Khan's appearance and voice, which is good.

I'm still glad this wasn't in the film, as I don't feel it was needed.
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Old June 29 2014, 04:43 PM   #43
Franklin
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?




Honestly, that just seems stupid to me. Indeed, one of the most stupid and unnecessary things I've seen in Trek. Granted I don't know why Section 31 thought they had to do it, but changing his looks for basically no reason is mutilation. At least I'd think that's how Khan would see it. Why would they think a man of advanced intellect with tremendous pride and a large ego, and most importantly, (thought to be) ethnically Sikh, a very proud people, would cooperate with anyone who mutilated him?

This disfigurement would be embarrassing and humiliating for Khan, and if nothing else, would probably serve to motivate him to do what he did in STID. Why would Section 31 think for a minute he'd passively cooperate after doing such a thing to him?

If they want to change his looks, then why not wipe his mind clean of his memories, too? Make him believe he is John Harrison. Give him false memories of who he is. Who is really is in his mind is more potentially dangerous than how he looks. If he still knows he's Khan, then what difference does it make how he looks?

And, here's another problem: if you can alter his looks so perfectly, then why can't you do something about his physical abilities? They may want his mind, but why not alter him further internally to reduce his strength and make him less of a potential threat? Or, they could've taken the draconian "Roots" way out, and just slashed his Achilles tendon.

Really, this "explanation" is better than just suspending disbelief and accepting that Cumberbatch is Khan?
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Old June 29 2014, 04:59 PM   #44
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

My question would be "Why include Khan at all?"
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Old June 29 2014, 05:02 PM   #45
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Re: Why didnt they include a Khan flashback in STID?

sbk1234 wrote: View Post
My question would be "Why include Khan at all?"
As has been reported in many threads, there was disagreement among the writers about whether or not Harrison should be Khan.

But they did it, and now we live with it.
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