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View Poll Results: What did Picard mean by 150+
150+ planets total 6 12.00%
150+ Federation members 29 58.00%
150+ Species homeworlds 12 24.00%
Something else 3 6.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 23 2014, 04:58 PM   #31
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: What Did Picard Mean?

I'm curious as to how the number 150 was arrived at.
Okuda does say it is in the UN ballpark, but more importantly, it is large enough a number to account for all the known and mentioned UFP species and still leave room for what would be plausibly added in a spinoff or three.

I'd expect Picard to deliver a truthful answer
I wouldn't - he's always on a hobby horse of some sort or another when talking with lesser species or barbaric cultures...

What was the status of these worlds? Did the Federation have some kind of a claim staked on them?
The Federation can find unclaimed, habitable worlds at the drop of a hat in DS9 "Sanctuary" still. I guess it simply jibes with the Trek take on how the galaxy is put together: millions of (humanlike) species out there, but billions of potentially habitable worlds, and plenty of ancient cultures that have turned that potential into terraforming reality and then departed.

And in Star Trek II, Carol Marcus referenced the "problems of population and food supply"?!
All the freight-hauling ships we have seen have been tiny, including the ENT ones that at least were bigger than combat starships for a rare once. With such shipping resources, problems of population could not be solved by emigration, and problems of food supply could not be solved by imports.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old June 23 2014, 07:37 PM   #32
Annorax849
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

Weird, I was thinking of doing a poll like this if I hadn't done the other. I just go with species homeworlds. There's no way he included all colonies. Star Charts implied he meant both homeworlds and major colonies, which is certainly possible, but SC's problem was that it tried to list all 150 members, while obviously there would be many that the audience doesn't know about (as seen in TMP and TVH).
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Old June 23 2014, 08:12 PM   #33
T'Girl
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

^ Which of the "star charts" are you mentally viewing? There are quite a few different ones floating around on the internet.

None of them seem to go with Picard's eight light year long Federation. My own mental picture is everyone in the alpha/beta quad are all situated in the orion arm of the galaxy.

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Old June 23 2014, 08:17 PM   #34
Annorax849
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
^ Which of the "star charts" are you mentally viewing? There are quite a few different ones floating around on the internet.

None of them seem to go with Picard's eight light year long Federation. My own mental picture is everyone in the alpha/beta quad are all situated in the orion arm of the galaxy.

The book Star Trek: Star Charts.

And assuming you meant 8000 ly, there is this one (not Star Charts):
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...2871-galac.jpg
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Old June 23 2014, 08:39 PM   #35
Timo
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

The Star Charts approach is to try and find distant and isolated "hangaround members" to the UFP to justify Picard's figure, which is an obvious case of bragging anyway. We already have the real stars Alpha Cygni and Canopus as UFP territory (if not outright members), and the distance between those is about 3,000 lightyears, to opposing directions from Earth (with Canopus being the closer, about 200 ly antispinward from here).

8,000 ly for the most distant such pair probably isn't an unrealistic figure, then, considering that Canopus was considered basically a core world in TOS "Ultimate Computer" even if Alpha Cygni represented a far frontier in "Encounter at Farpoint".

You can probably fit millions of Earth-sized planets between those two real stars in the real Milky Way; in Trek, circumstances might be even more favorable, and each "exo-Earth" a habitable duplicate of our homeworld, thanks to all that ancient terraforming. It wouldn't make much sense for the UFP to claim mere 150 planets out of those, or even the thousand mentioned by Kirk (but it would be possible for mankind alone to have staked a claim to those thousand, out of the hundreds of thousands claimed by the UFP members in total).

Timo Saloniemi
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Old June 23 2014, 09:42 PM   #36
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

I suppose in some ways, I can understand feeling a bit "smug" about humanity's achievements in the 24th century. I mean, think about it:

No more hunger
No more slavery
Limitless energy
No more headaches (?!)
No more colds

And that's apparently just for starters! I'd feel pretty damn proud to be a human being with all that having been achieved!

On the other hand, there were a few creepy ones that slipped in, such as:

Detecting the seeds of criminal behavior (this one really needs clarification!)

It does make me wonder how much privacy is left. Maybe that's why people are lining up in the rain to join Starfleet; to get a few moments without watchful eyes over them!
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Old June 23 2014, 10:51 PM   #37
Robert Comsol
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
No more colds
PICARD: Ginger tea with honey, eighty degrees Celsius.
KENNELLY: Ginger tea?
PICARD: My Aunt Adele's cure for the common cold.
KENNELLY: Common, hell. I picked this up from the Cardassian liaison last weekend. It's some damn virus they've sicked on me.


I'd say they still haven't managed to eliminate the common cold by the 24th Century, but neither did they figure out a method for better hair implants (unless Picard deliberately decided he wanted to look more Deltan).

Bob
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Old June 23 2014, 11:01 PM   #38
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

I was thinking of Datalore:

Wesley: Have you got a cold?
Data: A cold what?
Wesley: It's a disease my mom says people used to get.

I did not know a cold was considered a 'disease', though. Then again...what else would it possibly be?

I'd forgotten about Aunt Adele...
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Old July 1 2014, 09:26 PM   #39
T'Girl
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Limitless energy
Other fans occasionally make the same claim, but I don't think their power generation would be "limitless."

The starships have to have M/AM reactors to move themselves at warp speeds.

It something like 200 people in a submarine have a nuclear reactor powerful enought to power a small city. That doesn't mean every group of 200 on Earth have their own reactor. Earth likely has suficiant generation capacity to supply the populace with a good amount of power, but if too many peope tried to use their replicators at the same time their version of the grid would brown out.

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Old July 1 2014, 09:54 PM   #40
UssGlenn
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

Something else to keep in mind is what numbers Picard would actually know off the top of his head. For example, when asked how many entities are part of the United States, we would say 50, and not list the 5 territories or various islands. So I figure he was giving her the ballpark number on worlds represented on the Federation Council, of which there would be some duplication of species.
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Old July 1 2014, 11:55 PM   #41
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
It something like 200 people in a submarine have a nuclear reactor powerful enought to power a small city. That doesn't mean every group of 200 on Earth have their own reactor.
That's a great way to put it, T'Girl. Thanks for the perspective!

I hereby rescind my 'limitless energy' claim.
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Old July 2 2014, 12:06 AM   #42
wulfio
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

I took it as 150+ individual species.

Humans are a member. Vulcans are a member. Trill are a member. Betazeds are a member. etc. The vulcan colony of (insert name here) isnt`a member of the Federation, the Vulcans are a member of the federation. Unless a colony separated to form its own government, and then subsequently that government decided to join the federation, then it wouldn`t be considered a member in its own right.
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Old July 2 2014, 10:55 AM   #43
grendelsbayne
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
In context, the meaning seems to be "150 members". This seems the general consensus, and I can understand why. In the case of Humans, Earth will counts as one, Mars maybe (has been ever established if it's voting member?), and Alpha Centauri as another. If the case of Humans is typical, this would imply between 50 and 100 species. But you know, drawing conclusions from one data point is not a good idea in general.

Personally, I prefer to think that he meant 150 planets total, including colonies with a significant population and a degree of autonomy (but not necessarily full membership in the Federation). This would bring the number of species probably under 50, and probably much less. I prefer this figure because it would explain how the Federation can be kept in check by single-species political entities like the Klingon or the Romulan Empire. (Even if we imagine that it takes multiple single-species empire to keep in check the Federation, it's really hard to imagine that less than 10 species can be a threat to a huge federation of 150 species.) On the other hand, just like in real life, some species can be vastly more numerous and have vastly more resources than others, so the sheer number of members can be a meaningless metric.
I don't think that's necessarily true. First of all, the klingon and Romulan empires are considerably older than the Federation, and obviously expansionistic. They probably have lots of very old, well established colonies, meaning the total number of Klingons or Romulans is probably very high. Many of the Federation member worlds, on the other hand, very often seem to be very anti-expansionistic. I would not be even remotely surprised to learn that the majority of Fed. Member species have no colonies outside their home system. Even the vulcans, andorians, etc, seem to have very few colonies considering how long they've been in space. Usually it seems like Humans are the only driving force behind the expansion of the Federation.

On top of that, there's also evidence that the Klingon and Romulan empires are very much not single species entities. The Romulans clearly use alien slave labor (and every Romulan not working in the mines is another romulan available to man the Fleet, the Tal Shiar or the research labs), and if they're willing and able to do so on Remus, the same is almost certainly true at other locations as well. The Klingons in TOS are shown as being just as interested (and with roughly equal chances of success) in getting random alien races to pick their 'side' as the Federation is, which suggests that the Klingon empire may actually have any number of loose vassal states, and that's on top of all the other worlds the klingons have conquered over the centuries (conquest being repeatedly referred to as a major historical pattern of the empire).

There's also the 'North Korea' factor to consider: even if the Federation is huge compared to the other empires, that's not a major advantage at all if the vast majority of its people is just sitting around enjoying civilian life with no interest in Starfleet, while the Romulan and klingon societies are built from the ground up to maximize their military potential. Especially in consideration of the fact that those empires don't even need to be capable of completely conquering the Federation in order to be a terrifying threat to it, because a peace-loving society like the Federation is terrified at the very possibility of war. All they have to do is be threatening enough to make it absolutely clear that any war between them would bleed the Federation badly.

And none of that even touches on the Technological playing field - cloaking devices are an amazing advantage in and of themselves.

Last edited by grendelsbayne; July 2 2014 at 11:06 AM.
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Old July 3 2014, 04:51 AM   #44
doctorfoto
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

wulfio wrote: View Post
I took it as 150+ individual species.

Humans are a member. Vulcans are a member. Trill are a member. Betazeds are a member. etc. The vulcan colony of (insert name here) isnt`a member of the Federation, the Vulcans are a member of the federation. Unless a colony separated to form its own government, and then subsequently that government decided to join the federation, then it wouldn`t be considered a member in its own right.
Correct. Ezri Dax was from a non-Federation planet, but it's doubtful that she had to require sponsorship (as Nog had to) in applying to Starfleet.
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Old July 3 2014, 10:32 AM   #45
T'Girl
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Re: What Did Picard Mean?

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
First of all, the klingon and Romulan empires are considerably older than the Federation, and obviously expansionistic.
I would describe the Federation also as "obviously expansionistic."

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