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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 20 2014, 10:20 PM   #91
BigJake
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Franklin wrote: View Post
Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen.
Right. That's what I'm talking about.

And yours would be a perfectly arguable view*. Just as the Vulcan time-renegades would have an arguable case in their own right. (It could get really interesting when you get into the thickets of whether argument-from-destiny is happening and whether that's logical. ) It's one of those interesting ethical dilemmas where your characters and your audience could come down with validity on either side.

[* Kind of hard to square, mind you, with the question of whether there's a "right" or "wrong" version of a timeline. If there is no "right" version of a timeline, it's hard to see how "fixing" Vulcan's destruction would be ethically wrong. But it's an interesting question.]
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Old June 20 2014, 10:36 PM   #92
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

BigJake wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen.
Right. That's what I'm talking about.

And yours would be a perfectly arguable view*. Just as the Vulcan time-renegades would have an arguable case in their own right. (It could get really interesting when you get into the thickets of whether argument-from-destiny is happening and whether that's logical. ) It's one of those interesting ethical dilemmas where your characters and your audience could come down with validity on either side.

[* Kind of hard to square, mind you, with the question of whether there's a "right" or "wrong" version of a timeline. If there is no "right" version of a timeline, it's hard to see how "fixing" Vulcan's destruction would be ethically wrong. But it's an interesting question.]
Hell, if there's no "right" or "wrong" timeline, if I could, I'd just keep going back in time and changing things until I finally ended up in the timeline where I'm happily married to Scarlett Johansson.

What derailed me in the thread is the argument some were making that Spock Prime, Spock, and Kirk are acting out of character for not at least trying to go back in time and save Vulcan.
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Old June 20 2014, 10:40 PM   #93
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Franklin wrote: View Post
Hell, if there's no "right" or "wrong" timeline, if I could, I'd just keep going back in time and changing things until I finally ended up in the timeline where I'm happily married to Scarlett Johansson.
And a noble quest that would be.
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Old June 21 2014, 12:19 AM   #94
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

BigJake wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Hell, if there's no "right" or "wrong" timeline, if I could, I'd just keep going back in time and changing things until I finally ended up in the timeline where I'm happily married to Scarlett Johansson.
And a noble quest that would be.
Better luck to you than the guy from Robocop that tried that in Voyager and got Crazy-Janeway'd.
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Old June 21 2014, 12:38 AM   #95
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Hell, if there's no "right" or "wrong" timeline, if I could, I'd just keep going back in time and changing things until I finally ended up in the timeline where I'm happily married to Scarlett Johansson.
And a noble quest that would be.
Better luck to you than the guy from Robocop that tried that in Voyager and got Crazy-Janeway'd.
Getting Janeway'd is a heck of a lot better than living with Topher Grace in the 1970's.
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Old June 21 2014, 01:07 AM   #96
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

BigJake wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Hell, if there's no "right" or "wrong" timeline, if I could, I'd just keep going back in time and changing things until I finally ended up in the timeline where I'm happily married to Scarlett Johansson.
And a noble quest that would be.
"If this timeline is wrong... I don't wanna be right!"
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Old June 21 2014, 01:47 AM   #97
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

BigJake wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen.
Right. That's what I'm talking about.

And yours would be a perfectly arguable view*. Just as the Vulcan time-renegades would have an arguable case in their own right. (It could get really interesting when you get into the thickets of whether argument-from-destiny is happening and whether that's logical. ) It's one of those interesting ethical dilemmas where your characters and your audience could come down with validity on either side.

[* Kind of hard to square, mind you, with the question of whether there's a "right" or "wrong" version of a timeline. If there is no "right" version of a timeline, it's hard to see how "fixing" Vulcan's destruction would be ethically wrong. But it's an interesting question.]
The thing is this isn't the existing Vulcan timeline altered, it's an alternative timeline. So the renegade Vulcans could leave this one just as it was and try and jump timelines back to the one with Vulcan intact. Of course the time police would want to prevent this as it's altering both timelines to remove people from one and insert them in another. Though if this caused no major changes they might not expend their timecop manpower on it.
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Old June 21 2014, 02:54 AM   #98
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

teacake wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen.
Right. That's what I'm talking about.

And yours would be a perfectly arguable view*. Just as the Vulcan time-renegades would have an arguable case in their own right. (It could get really interesting when you get into the thickets of whether argument-from-destiny is happening and whether that's logical. ) It's one of those interesting ethical dilemmas where your characters and your audience could come down with validity on either side.

[* Kind of hard to square, mind you, with the question of whether there's a "right" or "wrong" version of a timeline. If there is no "right" version of a timeline, it's hard to see how "fixing" Vulcan's destruction would be ethically wrong. But it's an interesting question.]
The thing is this isn't the existing Vulcan timeline altered, it's an alternative timeline. So the renegade Vulcans could leave this one just as it was and try and jump timelines back to the one with Vulcan intact. Of course the time police would want to prevent this as it's altering both timelines to remove people from one and insert them in another. Though if this caused no major changes they might not expend their timecop manpower on it.
If the Vulcans tried that and ended up in the other timeline, would that make them illegal aliens?
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Old June 21 2014, 04:24 AM   #99
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Shat Happens wrote: View Post
The only way to enjoy ST09 is thinking of it as a reboot with a bad excused cameo from Nimoy in it.
Wrong.
I am perfectly happy watching NuTrek as an alternate dimension to the original. In fact, I prefer it. This way they can do whatever they want to, change whatever they want, and it won't piss me off because I know the other timeline is still there just the way it should be.
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Old June 21 2014, 05:38 AM   #100
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Franklin wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post

Right. That's what I'm talking about.

And yours would be a perfectly arguable view*. Just as the Vulcan time-renegades would have an arguable case in their own right. (It could get really interesting when you get into the thickets of whether argument-from-destiny is happening and whether that's logical. ) It's one of those interesting ethical dilemmas where your characters and your audience could come down with validity on either side.

[* Kind of hard to square, mind you, with the question of whether there's a "right" or "wrong" version of a timeline. If there is no "right" version of a timeline, it's hard to see how "fixing" Vulcan's destruction would be ethically wrong. But it's an interesting question.]
The thing is this isn't the existing Vulcan timeline altered, it's an alternative timeline. So the renegade Vulcans could leave this one just as it was and try and jump timelines back to the one with Vulcan intact. Of course the time police would want to prevent this as it's altering both timelines to remove people from one and insert them in another. Though if this caused no major changes they might not expend their timecop manpower on it.
If the Vulcans tried that and ended up in the other timeline, would that make them illegal aliens?
They'd have to take new identities since they already exist there. OR kill their original selves.
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Old June 21 2014, 12:57 PM   #101
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Franklin wrote: View Post
One more time, with feeling: BOTH UNIVERSES ARE CORRECT! Almost everyone from Orci and Kurtzman to a lot of us posting here have been trying to explain that.

Kirk didn't come across an Earth destroyed by the probe, then go back in time and change everything. He found whales in the past, came back to his correct time and place with them, and stopped the probe before it could destroy the Earth.
So if THE VOYAGE HOME showed Earth to be destroyed by the probe, Kirk would then be in the wrong to go back in time and prevent that from happening because he'd be "destroying" a universe where Earth was devastated?
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Old June 21 2014, 01:20 PM   #102
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

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So if THE VOYAGE HOME showed Earth to be destroyed by the probe, Kirk would then be in the wrong to go back in time and prevent that from happening because he'd be "destroying" a universe where Earth was devastated?
A day or two later? No. Twenty-five years after the fact? Yes.

The way I read this thread is that these Vulcans want to go back and reset everything from the day of Nero arrived in 2233. They would be wiping people who never existed in the other timeline out or had radically different lives.
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Old June 21 2014, 01:42 PM   #103
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

So if THE VOYAGE HOME showed Earth to be destroyed by the probe, Kirk would then be in the wrong to go back in time and prevent that from happening because he'd be "destroying" a universe where Earth was devastated?
A day or two later? No. Twenty-five years after the fact? Yes.

The way I read this thread is that these Vulcans want to go back and reset everything from the day of Nero arrived in 2233. They would be wiping people who never existed in the other timeline out or had radically different lives.
teacake only suggested that these Vulcans should go back to a time when Vulcan was still around, not stop Nero's time traveling shenanigans. If this were all about trying to prevent Nero from going back to the past, then I can see why many nuTrek fans are offended at the idea of trying to eliminate the universe they came to love in the two films.

I know what I would do: Go up to the Klingons and tell them "Hey, that Romulan p'takh Nero said your momma has no honor", then he's off to execution.
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Old June 21 2014, 02:51 PM   #104
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

So if THE VOYAGE HOME showed Earth to be destroyed by the probe, Kirk would then be in the wrong to go back in time and prevent that from happening because he'd be "destroying" a universe where Earth was devastated?
A day or two later? No. Twenty-five years after the fact? Yes.

The way I read this thread is that these Vulcans want to go back and reset everything from the day of Nero arrived in 2233. They would be wiping people who never existed in the other timeline out or had radically different lives.
teacake only suggested that these Vulcans should go back to a time when Vulcan was still around, not stop Nero's time traveling shenanigans. If this were all about trying to prevent Nero from going back to the past, then I can see why many nuTrek fans are offended at the idea of trying to eliminate the universe they came to love in the two films.

I know what I would do: Go up to the Klingons and tell them "Hey, that Romulan p'takh Nero said your momma has no honor", then he's off to execution.
^^^that'd be the easiest and cleanest way to solve the problem
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Old June 22 2014, 02:46 PM   #105
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Wouldn't this just split the timeline again? Adding a third thread, in which NuTrek itself diverges into Vulcan destroyed/saved versions?

IMO delivering that hammer blow to the Vulcan race showed astute artistic vision. Being 'Vulcan' heretofore meant what? Logic? Mystic? Repression? Fanatic? Just plain snotty? CNTL-ALT-DEL = welcome.

So some Vulcans go back and save Vulcan. Okay. Have fun. I'm sure we'll stay focused on NuTrek as seen on and after STID.
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