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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 20 2014, 03:57 PM   #76
DonIago
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

It sounds like a paradox anyway...how can PrimeSpock warn himself not to end up in the NuVerse if he never ends up in the NuVerse? Generally I'd suggest the paradox would be resolved by the "creation" of yet another timeline...

Except that I'm not sure that timelines are "created" or "destroyed" in any case, but rather that they always existed, like railroad tracks running parallel to each other. You can switch from one track to another, but that doesn't mean the "alternate" track didn't exist before you jumped to it.
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Old June 20 2014, 04:41 PM   #77
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
Unless said time travel operates in a branching fashion as in the film, which avoids the grandfather paradox entirely. That was the point.
Branching or not, Spock could always try to contact someone (maybe even himself) from the Prime Universe and tell them to take care of Nero before he made the Jellyfish and the Narada disappear into that black hole. Then the branching is avoided and the nuUniverse will never exist, everything is restored to normal.
This is, well, stupid. You presume the new branch needs to be "fixed" (an impossibility) or, if we carry the implication of your suggestion to its logical outcome, you endorse the extinction of an entire universe--teeming with life. Now it's all fiction, so the stakes are not all that high. But if you are, on the one hand, arguing that a character who did not attempt to "save" a doomed planet is behaving at odds with his previous character development, you cannot seriously propose that that same character, in the name of some "higher morality", go about that action by snuffing out the lives of an entire universe.

Nothing needs to be "fixed". Nothing that has happened in the new universe has in any way altered the "prime" universe. Besides, you are free to simply ignore the new universe if it isn't to your liking. Many of us, though, are quite fond of it and would prefer to have it continue.
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Old June 20 2014, 05:05 PM   #78
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Ovation wrote: View Post

Nothing needs to be "fixed". Nothing that has happened in the new universe has in any way altered the "prime" universe. Besides, you are free to simply ignore the new universe if it isn't to your liking. Many of us, though, are quite fond of it and would prefer to have it continue.
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Old June 20 2014, 07:59 PM   #79
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

JJ's universe, prime universe, which universe is the correct one? Come on, that's BS and a lot of it.

Kirk didn't see the probe boling Earth's oceans away and thought, "it's alright, there's another universe where this didn't happen". So with Vger etc.

The only way to enjoy ST09 is thinking of it as a reboot with a bad excused cameo from Nimoy in it.
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Old June 20 2014, 08:44 PM   #80
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
JJ's universe, prime universe, which universe is the correct one? Come on, that's BS and a lot of it.

Kirk didn't see the probe boling Earth's oceans away and thought, "it's alright, there's another universe where this didn't happen". So with Vger etc.

The only way to enjoy ST09 is thinking of it as a reboot with a bad excused cameo from Nimoy in it.
One more time, with feeling: BOTH UNIVERSES ARE CORRECT! Almost everyone from Orci and Kurtzman to a lot of us posting here have been trying to explain that.

Kirk didn't come across an Earth destroyed by the probe, then go back in time and change everything. He found whales in the past, came back to his correct time and place with them, and stopped the probe before it could destroy the Earth.

I have no idea what you mean about just letting V'Ger go. That all unfolded "real time."

If everyone were as fatalistic in all the universes as you have Kirk above, every universe would soon disappear.
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Old June 20 2014, 09:09 PM   #81
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

It's true that it's bound to jar a bit when you've seen Trek crews battle to "restore" the "real" timeline so many times in so many stories. (That's probably why you find yourself shouting in all-caps, Franklin. ) As that element of things goes, you kind of just have to either accept that that's ceased to matter (basically Because of Reasons) or not.
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Old June 20 2014, 09:10 PM   #82
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Nope, it's about time those pointy eared idiots got a good kick in their complacency.
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Old June 20 2014, 09:22 PM   #83
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Personally -- though I'm not exactly in favour of "resetting" as Franklin terms it -- the argument that the Alternate Universe is "correct" and therefore Vulcan's destruction should be immutable doesn't really hold water for me; I called it a cop-out earlier on account of it basically amounts to invoking God's Plan (or less charmingly, implying the Vulcans deserved it). The alternate universe is going to stay alternate no matter what happens to Vulcan anyway, since its POD is decades earlier. So it's a separate question. You can have stories about "saving" Vulcan -- either successfully doing so, or failing to do so and being reminded that "it was Destiny" or something if you really must -- without its making a point about "which universe is correct." (Yes, it mixes metaphors / models of time travel, but that's already happened anyway.)
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Old June 20 2014, 09:22 PM   #84
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

> If everyone were as fatalistic in all the universes as you have Kirk above, every universe would soon disappear.

YEt that's what Orci an his gang sold Spock would do.

Like Spock, with all his legendary character and resourcefulness, would sit in his ass and let Vulcan and Romulus and Earth (hadn't young Kirk stopped Nero) be and stay destroyed.

Our heroes would do something.
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Old June 20 2014, 09:26 PM   #85
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

It's a movie, things blow up, live with it.
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Old June 20 2014, 09:26 PM   #86
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

BigJake wrote: View Post
Personally -- though I'm not exactly in favour of "resetting" as Franklin terms it -- the argument that the Alternate Universe is "correct" and therefore Vulcan's destruction should be immutable doesn't really hold water for me; I called it a cop-out earlier on account of it basically amounts to invoking God's Plan (or less charmingly, implying the Vulcans deserved it). The alternate universe is going to stay alternate no matter what happens to Vulcan anyway, since its POD is decades earlier. So it's a separate question. You can have stories about "saving" Vulcan -- either successfully doing so, or failing to do so and being reminded that "it was Destiny" or something if you really must -- without its making a point about "which universe is correct." (Yes, it mixes metaphors / models of time travel, but that's already happened anyway.)
Shat Happens wrote: View Post
> If everyone were as fatalistic in all the universes as you have Kirk above, every universe would soon disappear.

YEt that's what Orci an his gang sold Spock would do.

Like Spock, with all his legendary character and resourcefulness, would sit in his ass and let Vulcan and Romulus and Earth (hadn't young Kirk stopped Nero) be and stay destroyed.

Our heroes would do something.
I think both of you (and a bunch of others) are still in denial that Vulcan is gone.
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Old June 20 2014, 09:27 PM   #87
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

^ Vulcan can be as gone as it likes. I just don't see any impediment to stories about it along the lines of the idea that started the thread and I don't see why you do. (Like, do you think you're "defending" nuTrek from the "criticism" that Vulcan is gone? As apparently Chemahkuu thinks they're doing? Because I don't think that was teacake's point.)
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Old June 20 2014, 10:03 PM   #88
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

I did a quick check, and "Assignment Earth" and TVH were the only TOS stories where Kirk and crew deliberately attempted time travel in their starship. They traveled from the past back to their time in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", but they were thrown into the past by accident. In "City", they used the Guardian. That's also the only TOS reset episode I'm aware of off the top of my head. There were only two other episodes with time travel: "The Nake Time" (just three days) and "All Our Yesterdays". "City" was the only real reset.

Even in TNG, there were only about ten time travel episodes over seven seasons, plus FC, and I think only a couple of those were "reset" type episodes.

VOY was the series that kept pushing the reset button. Find Janeway in the new universe, she'll have no problem going back to save Vulcan.

I guess where things got sidetracked is in discussing whether Spock Prime, or even Spock should attempt to go back and save Vulcan. Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen. They are not "healing" a timeline, they are destroying one because they prefer the other. A subtle but important difference that should make us all glad this can't happen in reality.
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Old June 20 2014, 10:06 PM   #89
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Franklin wrote: View Post
I did a quick check, and "Assignment Earth" and TVH were the only TOS stories where Kirk and crew deliberately attempted time travel in their starship. They traveled from the past back to their time in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", but they were thrown into the past by accident. In "City", they used the Guardian. That's also the only TOS reset episode I'm aware of off the top of my head. There were only two other episodes with time travel: "The Nake Time" (just three days) and "All Our Yesterdays". "City" was the only real reset.

Even in TNG, there were only about ten time travel episodes over seven seasons, plus FC, and I think only a couple of those were "reset" type episodes.

VOY was the series that kept pushing the reset button. Find Janeway in the new universe, she'll have no problem going back to save Vulcan.

I guess where things got sidetracked is in discussing whether Spock Prime, or even Spock should attempt to go back and save Vulcan. Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen. They are not "healing" a timeline, they are destroying one because they prefer the other. A subtle but important difference that should make us all glad this can't happen in reality.


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Old June 20 2014, 10:11 PM   #90
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
The only way to enjoy ST09 is thinking of it as a reboot with a bad excused cameo from Nimoy in it.
Wrong.
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