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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 18 2014, 04:07 PM   #31
DonIago
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

I might get a kick out of seeing some folks try going back in time to save Vulcan only to end up in yet another alternate timeline. But not as a movie.
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Old June 18 2014, 04:25 PM   #32
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

The real world explanation is that the JJverse is set up just how they want it. The loss of Vulcan and presence of Romulus is meant to be a major defining difference. They are unlikely to change that.

In story, taking the view that different time streams split and rejoin as the ripples from changes dissapate, both timelines being short a different planet is a biggie, and I wouldn't expect the two to recombine any time soon, so unless someone 'tampers' the status quo remains.

I can, however, see a time in the middle distance, when the current creative team have moved on, and maybe even when the franchise is bck on TV, that someone will think that recombining the various strands of the franchise is a great idea.

I could imagine a 25th century show that did just that...
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Old June 18 2014, 04:38 PM   #33
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Franklin wrote: View Post
This is a new reality. Not a changed one.
There is effectively no difference between this universe and the one changed by McCoy in City. The only difference lies in the motivations of the characters. Kirk and Spock were motivated to restore things because they were stranded. And not just that, but that kind of thinking permeates the old Trek.

For whatever reason, Spock just didn't desire to restore it, but that's not to say it can't be restored. And that signifies one of the biggest changes of this reboot, that he simply doesn't care.
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Old June 18 2014, 05:19 PM   #34
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Franklin wrote: View Post
This is not like "City on the Edge of Forever" or those types of time travel stories. The way they set it up in ST09, there is nothing to "correct." This is an entirely new timeline created by the prime one at the point the Narada appeared. The prime universe reality goes chugging on unaffected except for the loss of Spock and the Narada's crew.

This is a new reality. Not a changed one. The things that happen in it are the things that are supposed to happen. Attempts to change it would actually be altering their reality, not restoring it.
It's exactly the same scenario as in "The City On The Edge Of Forever"! Kirk and Spock saw an entirely new timeline on Spock's tricorder in that episode, and that new timeline would have happend if they hadn't restored the original timeline. The Narada essentially does the same as Bones did, jumping back in time and messing things up. So why can't the original timeline be restored?

And who knows, maybe Spock Prime is already working on a plan to get things straight ... maybe it is him who is going to be the "villain" in the next movie!
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Old June 18 2014, 05:24 PM   #35
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
This is a new reality. Not a changed one.
There is effectively no difference between this universe and the one changed by McCoy in City. The only difference lies in the motivations of the characters. Kirk and Spock were motivated to restore things because they were stranded. And not just that, but that kind of thinking permeates the old Trek.

For whatever reason, Spock just didn't desire to restore it, but that's not to say it can't be restored. And that signifies one of the biggest changes of this reboot, that he simply doesn't care.
In "City", what happened wasn't supposed to happen. The Guardian is some type of portal that McCoy used to travel within his timeline and alter its future, not create a new timeline. Basically the same thing happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise". The "natural" unfolding of the timeline was altered. A new one wasn't created. Everything happened "in house," without affecting or creating other timelines.

It could be possible within the new universe for Spock (or someone) to go back and prevent the Narada from destroying Vulcan, but that isn't setting anything back to "normal."

Not doing that has nothing to do with Spock not caring, and everything to do with playing God. I'm sure Picard and the surviving Romulans wish they could go back in time and see to it that Spock Prime succeeds in saving Romulus. Same thing. They would be playing God in their own timeline. And God only knows how that would affect the new universe. Does it exist because of what happened the first time, or go away because the other timeline was altered so the event that started it didn't happen.

Before my head explodes thinking about this, a couple of other things:

If Spock could even somehow stop the Narada from ever appearing at all, he would end his universe, not reset anything.

The thing is, there is no way he could stop Nero from appearing because what causes him to appear back in time was an event in another universe that existed before Spock's.

Certainly within the logic of time travel in "City" or "Yesterday's Enterprise", Spock could go back and stop Nero the moment he appears. He could go back to prevent Vulcan from being destroyed. But in both cases, the new universe still exists. Nothing is reset because there's nothing to reset. He changed its history. Again, he'd be playing God, not making anything right.
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Old June 18 2014, 05:59 PM   #36
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Franklin wrote: View Post
In "City", what happened wasn't supposed to happen.
Trek XI wasn't supposed to happen either!
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Old June 18 2014, 06:01 PM   #37
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Honestly, any situation in which time travel occurs could be one in which the characters jump timelines, regardless of how identical the timeline at the end appears to the one at the beginning.

"Parallels" even introduced a way of checking such things. Quantum signatures. Spock Prime's quantum signature would doubtless indicate that he "belonged" to the Primeverse. Since we've never seen such a confirmation done in any other scenario where time travel occurred, we can't definitively say that anyone ended up back in the timeline they were in before the jump occurred. It's entirely possible they're merely in a timeline that very closely resembles their timeline of origin.
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Old June 18 2014, 06:20 PM   #38
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

BillJ wrote: View Post
I think the problem is, from Spock's perspective the universe he arrived in had been going for twenty-five years. There's a lot more to it than just saving Vulcan. He would be changing the lives of trillions for personal gain.

"The timeline is changed, things are worse than ever, we need to bring it back to the way it was."



"Nah. This timeline has been going on 20+ years, I think I'll just play it safe and leave it as it is."

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Old June 18 2014, 06:22 PM   #39
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
In "City", what happened wasn't supposed to happen.
Trek XI wasn't supposed to happen either!
When McCoy jumped back into time, the timeline they all lived in ceased to exist as it was (something about being in the presence of the Guardian must've kept Kirk and the landing party from being affected and keeping their memories that things weren't the same).

When the Narada (and Spock) went back in time, the timeline they left continued to exist. No alternate future within their original timeline presented itself as a result of their time travel. (At least in the comic book.) Instead, they just disappeared in their time and created the entirely new timeline we see. It is the 25th century in their old universe, and time goes on.

Maybe one can go back within the ST09 timeline and change things like Kirk and Spock did in "City", but there is absolutely nothing to change to make anything "right."

Further, this universe was created by events in another universe. So, Spock would have to go to Picard's time in another universe, and if he did stop Nero and Spock there, maybe it would save Romulus in that universe, but it would probably mean his own universe would cease to exist, because that means it was never created. Hell, he may disappear. At best, he'd be stranded in the 25th century of that other universe. Why would Spock do that?
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Old June 18 2014, 06:33 PM   #40
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I think the problem is, from Spock's perspective the universe he arrived in had been going for twenty-five years. There's a lot more to it than just saving Vulcan. He would be changing the lives of trillions for personal gain.

"The timeline is changed, things are worse than ever, we need to bring it back to the way it was."



"Nah. This timeline has been going on 20+ years, I think I'll just play it safe and leave it as it is."

Again, this was resetting ONE universe that went off kilter. Morally, philosophically, logically, whatever, "correcting" the destiny of a perverted universe when it's found out to be that way must be OK in the Trek world.

In ST09, there are TWO SEPARATE universes: the one Spock and Nero came from, and the new one created by Nero. As I said above, in this context, Spock Prime going back in time to save Vulcan would be no different than Picard deciding to go back in time and save Romulus in the original universe. Would Picard do that? No. It doesn't set anything right. It changes the destiny of the universe to suit Picard. So, why should Spock Prime think he should change the destiny of his new universe? What's being set right?
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Old June 18 2014, 06:48 PM   #41
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Franklin wrote: View Post
So, why should Spock Prime think he should change the destiny of his new universe? What's being set right?
I dunno, saving Vulcan and the lives lost from its destruction? Seriosuly, if this was Earth that got destroyed, I doubt everyone would just throw their hands up in the air and say "Well, we're an endangered species now. Guess we'll just have to colonize New Earth", given that time travel is a possibility.
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Old June 18 2014, 06:58 PM   #42
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
So, why should Spock Prime think he should change the destiny of his new universe? What's being set right?
I dunno, saving Vulcan and the lives lost from its destruction? Seriosuly, if this was Earth that got destroyed, I doubt everyone would just throw their hands up in the air and say "Well, we're an endangered species now. Guess we'll just have to colonize New Earth".
But this is a separate issue from making things "right" or returning things to normal, or resetting things, or whatever you want to call it. In this universe, Vulcan is gone. That was Vulcan's destiny in this universe. In the original universe, existing alongside this new one but in another dimension, Romulus is gone. That was its destiny in that universe. And it that universe, Vulcan still exists.

Should the Romulans in the 25th century venture to travel back in time and make sure Spock delivers the red matter in time to save their planet?

Should Spock Prime make it his mission to visit every universe where Vulcan was destroyed and alter their histories to restore the planet?

Should Kirk and Spock have responded to the planet-eating doomsday machine by going back in time to save the billions of beings it killed on planets it destroyed?

Restoring a reality that's broken is one thing. Altering one that isn't is another thing entirely.
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Old June 18 2014, 07:10 PM   #43
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

All I'm going to say that if the characters ever expressed that it was pointless to try to go back in time and save their world because "there's nothing to set right", it would make them appear callous and come off as a bunch of assholes I don't call heroes. You make a good point about the planet killer aftermath, and maybe that's something they also should have fixed since they had the ability to time travel and would actually use that technique when going back to save Earth in THE VOYAGE HOME. It would be so unsatisfying to just have Kirk and co not bother doing anything because they believe it was "destined" for destruction or whatever bullshit.

I'm glad ST09 at least doesn't have the characters saying something repugnant like "it's the planet's destiny in our universe", they just leave it up in the air instead.
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Old June 18 2014, 07:14 PM   #44
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Witness the start of the Temporal Cold War.
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Old June 18 2014, 07:28 PM   #45
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
All I'm going to say that if the characters ever expressed that it was pointless to try to go back in time and save their world because "there's nothing to set right", it would make them appear callous and come off as a bunch of assholes I don't call heroes. You make a good point about the planet killer aftermath, and maybe that's something they also should have fixed since they had the ability to time travel and would actually use that technique when going back to save Earth in THE VOYAGE HOME. It would be so unsatisfying to just have Kirk and co not bother doing anything because they believe it was "destined" for destruction or whatever bullshit.

I'm glad ST09 at least doesn't have the characters saying something repugnant like "it's the planet's destiny in our universe", they just leave it up in the air instead.
I guess it would be like a temporal prime directive, because, "it's the planet's destiny," was often the excuse for inaction by Picard in TNG and even Pike in STID.

And where would the line be drawn on making such changes? In TWOK, after having warp power restored, why wouldn't Kirk just fire the Enterprise up, slingshot around a star, and go back to his first meeting the Reliant and do things right that time?

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Witness the start of the Temporal Cold War.
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