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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old June 8 2014, 07:12 PM   #31
Paris
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

In terms of LGBT characters in Trek, i'm pretty sure in DRG3's latest effort, The Lost Era novel One Constant Star, states that Demora is bi. I don't remember the exact page, but i'm pretty sure i read that she was dating a person and that "they" were then dating another person. Sorry i forget the specifics...i just kept reading after i read that part. Thought it was cool. Just thought i'd mention it in the thread that is currently talking about the presence of LGBT characters in trek

..please correct me if I remember it wrong
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Old June 8 2014, 07:15 PM   #32
Deranged Nasat
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Paris wrote: View Post
In terms of LGBT characters in Trek, i'm pretty sure in DRG3's latest effort, The Lost Era novel One Constant Star, states that Demora is bi. I don't remember the exact page, but i'm pretty sure i read that she was dating a person and that "they" were then dating another person. Sorry i forget the specifics...i just kept reading after i read that part. Thought it was cool. Just thought i'd mention it in the thread that is currently talking about the presence of LGBT characters in trek

..please correct me if I remember it wrong
You're not wrong. Demora, in the prologue, thinks about her slowly deepening relationship with another female, and their eventual three-way relationship with a "male" Andorian - noteworthy, in that an Andorian would consider there to be someone missing from that arrangement, rather than someone extra .
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Old June 8 2014, 07:19 PM   #33
borgboy
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
In terms of LGBT characters in Trek, i'm pretty sure in DRG3's latest effort, The Lost Era novel One Constant Star, states that Demora is bi. I don't remember the exact page, but i'm pretty sure i read that she was dating a person and that "they" were then dating another person. Sorry i forget the specifics...i just kept reading after i read that part. Thought it was cool. Just thought i'd mention it in the thread that is currently talking about the presence of LGBT characters in trek

..please correct me if I remember it wrong
You're not wrong. Demora, in the prologue, thinks about her slowly deepening relationship with another female, and their eventual three-way relationship with a "male" Andorian - noteworthy, in that an Andorian would consider there to be someone missing from that arrangement, rather than someone extra .
Oh that is interesting! I look forward to reading that! I love the Andorians and their complex and very alien sexuality.
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Old June 8 2014, 07:26 PM   #34
Deranged Nasat
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

I'd note that, so far as I can remember, no statement is made as to Demora's sexual orientation; it's not a case of "she's bisexual" as such, merely "she is capable of forming a sexual/intimate bond with at least one person who happens to be the same sex" - if this makes sense?
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Old June 8 2014, 07:56 PM   #35
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

I think I understand completely. I don't really recall sexual orientations being referred to much at all in Trek lit when gay/bi or other alternative alien sexualities are present. People in Trek don't seem to be all that worked up over labels, except for the very awkward essay by Kirk in one of the movie novelizations where he addresses the Spock rumor - which as a kid was the first time I'd encountered the idea of same sex relationships treated with something like equality.
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Old June 8 2014, 08:43 PM   #36
Paris
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

borgboy wrote: View Post
....except for the very awkward essay by Kirk in one of the movie novelizations where he addresses the Spock rumor - which as a kid was the first time I'd encountered the idea of same sex relationships treated with something like equality.
Really? Which novelization was that? I don't remember and I haven't read any of the TOS Movie era novelizations in awhile...
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Old June 8 2014, 08:48 PM   #37
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

I don't remember which one it is, sorry. My best guess is ST2. The whole point of the essay was Kirk denying that he had a secret relationship with Spock, that he prefers women, but the denial is done in a mostly respectful way. The tone is that he's not gay, but there's nothing wrong with that, and that Vulcan's mating every seven years would be a bigger problem in a relationship than gender.
Edit - From a quick look at reviews on Amazon, it sounds like the first movie novelization is the one I'm thinking of. I don't have any of the novelizations any more, so I can't check personally.
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Old June 8 2014, 09:00 PM   #38
Deranged Nasat
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

^ That's the one that describes Kirk and Spock's relationship as t'hy'la, isn't it?
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Old June 8 2014, 09:01 PM   #39
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Maybe. I think that term shows up in some of the early novels, which often had lots of slashy subtext snuck in, some of it pretty blatant.
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Old June 8 2014, 09:52 PM   #40
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Christopher wrote: View Post
Well, although Phlox is kind of ambiguous -- each of his three wives has two other husbands, but they were never described as being his husbands as well, so it's unclear how that works (though it is a question I intend to tackle before much longer).
Wasn't there an episode where Phlox is discussing how close he is with all his wives, and then adds "and even some of the other husbands," causing whoever he was talking to (I think it was Archer, though it might have been Trip) to give him a strange look?
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Old June 8 2014, 10:40 PM   #41
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Paris wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
....except for the very awkward essay by Kirk in one of the movie novelizations where he addresses the Spock rumor - which as a kid was the first time I'd encountered the idea of same sex relationships treated with something like equality.
Really? Which novelization was that? I don't remember and I haven't read any of the TOS Movie era novelizations in awhile...
It's a footnote from Roddenberry's ST:TMP novelization, which was presented with the conceit of being a dramatization of actual events with an introduction and occasional commentary by Admiral Kirk. The footnote is from p. 22 of the scene where Spock is about to accept the Kolinahr medallion and renounce his former life forever, and thinks a farewell to Kirk, his t'hy'la The footnote reads:
Editor's note: The human concept of friend is most nearly duplicated in Vulcan thought by the term t'hy'la, which can also mean brother and lover. Spock's recollection (from which this chapter has drawn) is that it was a most difficult moment for him since he did indeed consider Kirk to have become his brother. However, because t'hy'la can be used to mean lover, and since Kirk's and Spock's friendship was unusually close, this has led to some speculation over whether they had actually indeed become lovers. At our request, Admiral Kirk supplied the following comment on this subject:

"I was never aware of this lovers rumor, although I have been told that Spock encountered it several times. Apparently he had always dismissed it with his characteristic lifting of his right eyebrow which usually connoted some combination of surprise, disbelief, and/or annoyance. As for myself, although I have no moral or other objections to physical love in any of its many Earthly, alien, and mixed forms, I have always found my best gratification in that creature woman. Also, I would dislike being thought of as so foolish that I would select a love partner who came into sexual heat only once every seven years."
(Gee, I wonder how Dr. Chapel felt when she read that last sentence...)

I agree, that was a pretty significant statement at the time, Kirk expressing the attitude that there was nothing wrong with alternative sexualities, even if he personally wasn't into them. Although it's interesting to note that he says women provide his best gratification, not his only gratification.
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Old June 8 2014, 11:02 PM   #42
ClayinCA
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

borgboy wrote: View Post
Those are some good examples - but all those shows are over with now, except for Who, and it's unknown if or when Jenny and Vastra will return.
They're going to be in the forthcoming series 8 premiere of Doctor Who, appearing opposite Peter Capaldi's new Doctor.
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Old June 8 2014, 11:23 PM   #43
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

ClayinCA wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
Those are some good examples - but all those shows are over with now, except for Who, and it's unknown if or when Jenny and Vastra will return.
They're going to be in the forthcoming series 8 premiere of Doctor Who, appearing opposite Peter Capaldi's new Doctor.
That's great! I love Vastra and Jenny. Any word on an appearance from River Song?
And thanks Christopher for the quote. On reflection, Roddenberry does seem to be having it both ways there, having Kirk deny being Spock's lover but deliberately using a made up alien word to describe their relationship that can mean lover - I interpret it to mean that Kirk and Spock are lovers and life partners in pretty much all ways except sexually. Very sly of Roddenberry for Kirk to say women are his best gratification, not his only. That can pretty easily be interpreted as Kirk being bisexual. A direct interpretation of the text makes it unlikely to read Kirk as strictly heterosexual - although I could also interpret this as Kirk experimenting with aliens who weren't exactly male or female by our standards.
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Old June 9 2014, 02:36 AM   #44
trampledamage
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Since this has moved on to a wider discussion, I'm going to leave the thread open and here - I have edited the original post to spoiler the story idea (and my apologies for not doing it sooner, the weekend got away from me).
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Old June 9 2014, 06:02 PM   #45
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

I never thought Reed was gay. Any subtle hints in that direction I thought was part of his English upbringing.
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