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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old June 8 2014, 01:01 PM   #16
Deranged Nasat
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Echtzeit wrote: View Post
I already said I was sorry. "Damage" is a pretty harsh word. I mean, I'm not the only one who ever came up with this idea, and I can't recall demanding something like "Make him gay, writers!" All I wanted was to ask a question and because of the fact that I am unused to this forum, it ended up in the wrong section apparently.

So, again, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention that this simple question would cause such "damage".
Don't worry about it. No harm done; it's just worth reminding people that story ideas aren't permitted here. Certainly no need to beat yourself up over it.
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Old June 8 2014, 01:06 PM   #17
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

I think Reed is straight but he has a massive war boner and that makes men like Hayes very attractive. Hayes is probably not the first man he found a lot more viscerally attractive than women. He's a bit of a juvenile with women, tittering about bums.. but with Hayes it's all manly business.

He's portrayed (on the show) as a product of english same sex boarding schools (not literally, that is just the type), gravitating to males for friendship, excitement, reassurance.. and oh the women, we need them for sex of course. But really he'd be better off just forgetting about them and going for broke(back).

Kind of a stereotype for repressed british guys. But well played for sure and an interesting character in many ways.

And Echtzeit you will get lots of positive feedback if you post in ENT on this topic
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Old June 8 2014, 01:19 PM   #18
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Funnily enough, one thing I'd like to see more of in the novels is people who simply aren't interested in sexuality, or are extremely selective in their choice of sexual partners so that the subject rarely if ever comes up. People who aren't looking for any sort of engagement. Not everyone relates to sexual partnership as some fundamental or essential part of their lives, and I'm not just referring to the asexual. I'd prefer a Reed who just wasn't interested to a Reed who was holding back (though as others have said, that would clash with a lot of the snippets about his earlier sexual interest in a number of women).

Personally, on a somewhat related note, I think the Federation is rather unbalanced in its attitude to sexuality - we have any number of sexually promiscuous cultures where sexual contact and pursuit of intimacy is a celebrated aspect of interpersonal life - Risians, Deltans, Argelians, Efrosians (though each of these are distinct in how they express it and the reasoning behind it, which is nice), but relatively few cultures who take a more conservative and cautious approach; we have the Arbazan, apparently, but they've never been explored, and we have some (generally well-played) exploration of the "Selkies" and the Andorians, and the consequences of ignoring or violating cultural taboos on sexuality within those cultures, which again is much appreciated, but it would be nice to have some acknowledgement that sometimes sex really doesn't matter that much.

There does seem a tendency among viewers and fans of all shows and franchises to speculate on characters' sexuality, especially if they rarely show active interest in flirtatious behaviour - well, sometimes sexuality isn't a very defining impulse. If someone doesn't have a member of the other sex on their arm or doesn't show much interest in the other sex, it seems to be the given thing to insist that they're homosexual, rather than just... not the type to be particularly given to seeking intimate company. Doesn't mean they couldn't be homosexual, and I imagine the understandable desire to see homosexual characters in a franchise that canonically hasn't featured any contributes to it in these cases, but I personally find it a little tiresome when it's assumed that the reason for a lack of engagement with the other sex is automatically a hint at preference for the same sex.

Although personally, it sounds like Reed had a very active (heterosexual) sexuality, and was appreciative of female company, only his general pained reticence means it rarely comes to the fore outside of particular contexts.
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Last edited by Deranged Nasat; June 8 2014 at 01:46 PM.
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Old June 8 2014, 01:26 PM   #19
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

teacake wrote: View Post
Kind of a stereotype for repressed british guys. But well played for sure and an interesting character in many ways.
Agreed. The thing about national stereotypes is, you'll sooner or later find plenty of people in your country who really are like that (I think it's just as important to realize that while it's foolish to make assumptions about peoples' behaviour and manner based on things like nationality, there's also going to be those who fit it rather well! Generalization in these matters is foolish, over-exposure or over-use of the tropes are tiring, unsympathetic or exaggerated portrayals can offend, but simply having characters who seem to fit isn't really problematic). When I went to university, for instance, some of the people there were just so British it was amusing, and rather eye-opening. Since then I've rarely had any issue with most "neutral" national stereotypes, since my perspective is "Yeah, I've known fellow countrymen who are like that. This exists, and it is largely "our thing"".

Although maybe that's because most stereotypes about my country's people are rather neutral. They could be interpreted as negative, but they could equally be viewed as rather flattering, depending on how you look at it...
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Old June 8 2014, 01:51 PM   #20
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
I think this collects together most of what we've learned canonically about Denobulan family life:

...

Is all of that from canon? There are bits of it that I don't remember.


Echtzeit wrote: View Post
So, again, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention that this simple question would cause such "damage".
Nothing personal -- but professionally, writers have to be extra-careful about even the appearance of plagiarism. Hence the forum policy.
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Old June 8 2014, 01:54 PM   #21
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Christopher wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
I think this collects together most of what we've learned canonically about Denobulan family life:

...

Is all of that from canon? There are bits of it that I don't remember.
I'm pretty sure?, though I have a tendency to extrapolate and interpret, and link things together, so I can't say for certain. I think most of that was taken from snippets we were given in the show, though maybe some of it was retconned?

I think most of it is on Memory Alpha, under Denobulan.
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Old June 8 2014, 04:33 PM   #22
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Sorry, I'm behind on my reading - do you want this moving to the Enterprise forum, or shall it stay here?
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Old June 8 2014, 05:56 PM   #23
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

People wouldn't be so anxious to identify a character as being gay if there were a fair number of actual gay characters already being portrayed. Gay characters in sci fi are still extremely rare, especially gay males. Sci fi is a lot more comfortable with lesbians, although even then it's often done in an exploitive way.
Since even the recent ST movies couldn't be bothered to have a gay character, there is still a lot of room for improvement. The novels have done much better.
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Old June 8 2014, 06:34 PM   #24
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

borgboy wrote: View Post
Gay characters in sci fi are still extremely rare, especially gay males. Sci fi is a lot more comfortable with lesbians, although even then it's often done in an exploitive way.
I can think of several gay male characters in genre TV: Jack Harkness and Ianto Jones in Torchwood, Sam Adama (and his husband) in Caprica, Steve Jinks in Warehouse 13. (And Gaeta on Galactica, but only in webisodes.) And there have been a number of non-exploitative portrayals of lesbian characters, like Camille Wray and her partner on Stargate Universe, Toby Nance on Primeval: New World, Jenny and Vastra in Doctor Who (well, depending on what you consider exploitative), etc.


And when you say "in sci-fi," I assume you mean film and television -- but that's a tiny, tiny fraction of the science fiction continuum, and generally much more restrained than literary SF. There have been plenty of explorations of alternative sexualities in prose SF/fantasy going back decades. For instance, Diane Duane's The Door Into... trilogy (aka The Tale of the Five) has a gay male couple as its lead characters. Although admittedly that might be part of the reason why it didn't sell well enough for her to get a publisher interested in the fourth book.
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Old June 8 2014, 06:36 PM   #25
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

trampledamage wrote: View Post
Sorry, I'm behind on my reading - do you want this moving to the Enterprise forum, or shall it stay here?
I'd say, delete the entire thread for damage control.
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Old June 8 2014, 06:39 PM   #26
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Markonian wrote: View Post
The bottom line is, whether Reed is straight or bi-curious, there's no closet for that on 22nd century Earth.
But I'm not really talking about him being closeted. As you say, that shouldn't even be a thing 200 years from now. What I'm talking about is a character discovering/realising a same-sex attraction where there hadn't been one before. In the huge spectrum of human(oid) sexuality, such changes do happen even if they are rare.

Anyway, don't they say that comparatively few people are full Kinsey 6s or 0s, and most are somewhere in-between? Maybe Reed could be a 1-1 1/2, and he just meets the one guy who does it for him in a life previously full of women.


CaffeineAddict wrote: View Post
I don't think Reed would need to be in the closet (even if one existed in the 22nd century) for people not to know - it's not like he was ever a character that felt comfortable sharing personal information.
That's certainly consistent with his characterisation. Someone could say to him "You never said anything," and he could reply, "You never asked."


borgboy wrote: View Post
Since even the recent ST movies couldn't be bothered to have a gay character, there is still a lot of room for improvement. The novels have done much better.
To be fair, we didn't learn enough about JJ-Sulu, -Chekov or -Scotty to say that they definitely aren't gay, just not that they definitely are. It's the old thing where for all we know the screen could be full of gay characters and we just never found out because they never had dialogue about romance or relationships. Yes, that's a cop-out, but I'm just devil's-advocating.

What about Keenser, Olson, Cupcake? We just don't know. For those two Caitian girls to have a threesome with Kirk must mean a certain comfort level with same-sex activity.


.
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Old June 8 2014, 06:54 PM   #27
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

Christopher wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
Gay characters in sci fi are still extremely rare, especially gay males. Sci fi is a lot more comfortable with lesbians, although even then it's often done in an exploitive way.
I can think of several gay male characters in genre TV: Jack Harkness and Ianto Jones in Torchwood, Sam Adama (and his husband) in Caprica, Steve Jinks in Warehouse 13. (And Gaeta on Galactica, but only in webisodes.) And there have been a number of non-exploitative portrayals of lesbian characters, like Camille Wray and her partner on Stargate Universe, Toby Nance on Primeval: New World, Jenny and Vastra in Doctor Who (well, depending on what you consider exploitative), etc.


And when you say "in sci-fi," I assume you mean film and television -- but that's a tiny, tiny fraction of the science fiction continuum, and generally much more restrained than literary SF. There have been plenty of explorations of alternative sexualities in prose SF/fantasy going back decades. For instance, Diane Duane's The Door Into... trilogy (aka The Tale of the Five) has a gay male couple as its lead characters. Although admittedly that might be part of the reason why it didn't sell well enough for her to get a publisher interested in the fourth book.
I did say rare, not nonexistent. Those are some good examples - but all those shows are over with now, except for Who, and it's unknown if or when Jenny and Vastra will return. There's improvement, but gay characters are still rare - yes, mostly in tv and movies. Books are always more progressive that way. Thanks for the info on The Door Into novels, I wasn't aware of them, but I will check them out!

On the subject of the new movies, I am assuming that main characters still have the same sexual orientation they had in TOS. Of course, there are some characters whose orientations haven't been explored, but I don't see that as meaning anything. It's possible they could be explored and developed in the future, but I'm not considering unknown orientations as actually adding anything to the diversity. Gay fans deserve better than that as some kind of consolation prize in place of real diversity.
If anyone would be bisexual in Enterprise and just not have shared it, it would be Malcolm, but despite his closed attitude towards sharing his favorite foods, he was pretty expressive in his interest in women, so that would only work if he took a different attitude in expressing his interest in men over how he expressed his interest in women. If he were leering over T'Pol but secretive over his interest in men - that doesn't really work.
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Old June 8 2014, 06:56 PM   #28
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
those two Caitian girls
Bah, Humans with tails do not a pair of Caitians make.

I choose to believe that these women were members of a sub-culture that appreciates the Caitian form and has artificial tails implanted, or something.

"We're Caitians! A Human can be a Caitian too!"

(They want Kirk having sex with "exotic" alien women but they don't actually want the women to be exotic or alien. Now, I would have loved to see Kirk having a good time with a pair of actual, honest-to-God Caitians, the ones that are covered in fur. http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...tian-brown.jpg)
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Old June 8 2014, 07:05 PM   #29
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

If they weren't called Caitians in dialogue, it's not canonical that they were, no matter what the producers have said about their intentions.
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Old June 8 2014, 07:06 PM   #30
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Re: Malcolm Reed and his love-life *** minor spoiler ***

I don't really consider Kirk having a threeway with two alien women to say much about LGBT characters. That was all about showing what a hetero stud Kirk is.
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