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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 7 2014, 01:47 AM   #31
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BillJ wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post

Amazingly it is possible to love everything, with varying degrees of love. I love the universe and I have loved all the incarnations of it. Obviously I have preferences but I enjoy the universe itself. Like BillJ I started watching it with TOS years ago. It's all good, it all has weaknesses, it all has strengths. NuTrek captured a lot of what I loved about TOS, I remembering thinking when I saw 2009 that I felt totally catered to as a TOS fan whose emotions about TOS are all wrapped up in bonding with it at a young age. That I did not expect to ever happen! I felt like I should write JJ a thank you letter after I walked out of seeing XI for the first time.
I have a complicated relationship with Berman-era Star Trek. Some of it I loved, other parts not so much. There are times when I definitely would've made different creative choices. But there's definitely enough entertaining material sprinkled through the various series to keep me coming back.
I think the sheer volume of it lends itself to a lot of clunky parts. The current era of tv where you get 13 quality eps a year is something I would love to see Trek do. You are just gonna end up with filler and waffling with the era of 23 eps a year.. but at the same time I am grateful for having so much of it. I mean geez over 700 episodes, we are lucky. I was heavily into Star Wars for a long time but one thing that made me wander off is you can only watch 6 movies so many times.
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Old June 7 2014, 01:50 AM   #32
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

I agree with BillJ's post, except for one thing. The Spock scream bothers me, and I just realized why.

The build up of the reversed-parallel scene was almost right.

I think it would have worked better if Spock let the tension build in his face exactly like Shatner did in TWOK. But instead of the scream, he should have remained silent and then went on to beat the batcrap out of Khan. After his speech about choosing not to feel, releasing all the pent up emotion at that moment seemed a little soon.

Saving the outburst for later would have made it perfect.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, mirroring Shatner's "collapse" on his side of the wall would have been better. Then the Khan ass-whooping.
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Old June 7 2014, 01:51 AM   #33
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post

Well, yeah. In fact Abrams was specifically not trying to capture the essence of TOS, which he couldn't "find a way into." But there seem to be a lot of very virulent feelings toward TNG-era Trek bound up with claims about NuTrek having made it "Star Trek again," it often seems to be about more than what's in the movies*.
And Nick Meyer has never seen Star Trek before getting the gig to direct TWOK,

The guys writing ST09 could get into it, so I'm sure that helped. Do you have link to Abrams' statement? I've seen one were he says he didn't "get it' when he saw it as child, admiting he may have been too young to get it.
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Old June 7 2014, 01:52 AM   #34
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

teacake wrote: View Post
Don't forget to tell people to read your hate screed.. oh wait you already did that.
You can click that link any time you want to. Don't be afraid of your fascination...

BillJ wrote:
I have a complicated relationship with Berman-era Star Trek. Some of it I loved, other parts not so much. There are times when I definitely would've made different creative choices. But there's definitely enough entertaining material sprinkled through the various series to keep me coming back.
Yeah, pretty much this.
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Old June 7 2014, 01:53 AM   #35
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

urbandefault wrote: View Post
I agree with most of BillJ's post, except for one thing. The Spock scream bothers me, and I just realized why.

The build up of the reversed-parallel scene was almost right.

I think it would have worked better if Spock let the tension build in his face exactly like Shatner did in TWOK. But instead of the scream, he should have remained silent and then went on to beat the batcrap out of Khan. After his speech about choosing not to feel, releasing all the pent up emotion at that moment seemed a little soon.

Saving the outburst for later would have made it perfect.
That's an interesting idea though maybe too subtle.. but I think it would work, certainly Quinto could do it. I loved watching his build up to the scream.
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Old June 7 2014, 02:00 AM   #36
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

teacake wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post
I agree with most of BillJ's post, except for one thing. The Spock scream bothers me, and I just realized why.

The build up of the reversed-parallel scene was almost right.

I think it would have worked better if Spock let the tension build in his face exactly like Shatner did in TWOK. But instead of the scream, he should have remained silent and then went on to beat the batcrap out of Khan. After his speech about choosing not to feel, releasing all the pent up emotion at that moment seemed a little soon.

Saving the outburst for later would have made it perfect.
That's an interesting idea though maybe too subtle.. but I think it would work, certainly Quinto could do it. I loved watching his build up to the scream.
The tension of the build up, seeing the pain and anger in Spock's face, expecting the scream, then silence. That's drama.
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Old June 7 2014, 02:07 AM   #37
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Yeah that would have been cool!
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Old June 7 2014, 02:57 AM   #38
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BillJ wrote: View Post
Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness:

1 - Niburu - This is what hooked little BillyJ on Star Trek in the first place. Big, brash adventure on the Final Frontier.

2 - Enterprise in the ocean - Coolest special effect I've ever seen in a major motion picture.

3 - Sacrifice - What would you sacrifice to save someone you love? Being married and a father of three, it is a question that I don't know the answer to.

4 - Khan - Cumberbatch was born to play the role. Cunning when the situation calls for it, brutal when the situation calls for it. I think his performance was very much in line with Montalban's "Space Seed" portrayal of the character. "Khan Noonien Singh is the most dangerous adversary the Enterprise ever faced. He is brilliant, ruthless and he will not hesitate to kill every single one of you."

5 - The Rundown - There is just an incredible feel in the theater when the Vengeance runs down the Enterprise while at warp.

6 - Pike's death - Incredibly well done scene that isn't dependent on dialogue to get the point across.

7 - Losing the Enterprise - "You don't respect the chair". This was an expected fallout from the "Cadet to Captain" scenario of the first film. I wish they could've delved into the situation a bit more but understand why they didn't.

8 - Klingons! - The most menacing they've been since Michael Ansara played Kang in 1968's "The Day of the Dove".

9 - The Argument - I think the Spock/Uhura argument on the way to Kronos is probably one of the most realistic "relationship" moments I've seen in the history of the franchise. Being married for twenty-plus years, I know that issues between couples can bubble to the surface at the most inopportune times.

10 - Khan!!! - Loved it! I loved that they reversed the scene. I loved that Spock began to figure out why him and Kirk worked well together. I love that he wanted to beat the shit out of Khan for killing his friend.

11 - The Speech - I don't care about Orci's feelings about 9/11 but the speech Kirk gives should hit home for every American.

12 - Uhura - I loved that she wanted to be the one to speak to the Klingons. No, "Captain, I'm frightened", even though she clearly was uneasy with the situation.

I found Star Trek Into Darkness fun in a way that Star Trek simply hadn't been in a very long time. Are there things I might have done differently? Yes. Am I sure that those things would've made it a better movie? No.

When I watch the Abramsverse films, it is almost like I've been transported back in time to a point when Star Trek didn't take itself so seriously.
Yes. All of this. *throws money at BillJ for some reason*

Also, the argument scene is still one of my favorites, because it's so true. I particularly love the part where Kirk's initial reaction is to stay out of it, but once Uhura's point hits home, he turns around with a "she is right..."
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Old June 7 2014, 03:11 AM   #39
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

^Yes what I love about that is it brings home that okay, Spock and Uhura are having a fight but you know is not going to be left out of any commentary on Spock? Kirk
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Old June 7 2014, 03:25 AM   #40
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BillJ wrote: View Post
Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness:

1 - Niburu - This is what hooked little BillyJ on Star Trek in the first place. Big, brash adventure on the Final Frontier.

2 - Enterprise in the ocean - Coolest special effect I've ever seen in a major motion picture.

3 - Sacrifice - What would you sacrifice to save someone you love? Being married and a father of three, it is a question that I don't know the answer to.

4 - Khan - Cumberbatch was born to play the role. Cunning when the situation calls for it, brutal when the situation calls for it. I think his performance was very much in line with Montalban's "Space Seed" portrayal of the character. "Khan Noonien Singh is the most dangerous adversary the Enterprise ever faced. He is brilliant, ruthless and he will not hesitate to kill every single one of you."

5 - The Rundown - There is just an incredible feel in the theater when the Vengeance runs down the Enterprise while at warp.

6 - Pike's death - Incredibly well done scene that isn't dependent on dialogue to get the point across.

7 - Losing the Enterprise - "You don't respect the chair". This was an expected fallout from the "Cadet to Captain" scenario of the first film. I wish they could've delved into the situation a bit more but understand why they didn't.

8 - Klingons! - The most menacing they've been since Michael Ansara played Kang in 1968's "The Day of the Dove".

9 - The Argument - I think the Spock/Uhura argument on the way to Kronos is probably one of the most realistic "relationship" moments I've seen in the history of the franchise. Being married for twenty-plus years, I know that issues between couples can bubble to the surface at the most inopportune times.

10 - Khan!!! - Loved it! I loved that they reversed the scene. I loved that Spock began to figure out why him and Kirk worked well together. I love that he wanted to beat the shit out of Khan for killing his friend.

11 - The Speech - I don't care about Orci's feelings about 9/11 but the speech Kirk gives should hit home for every American.

12 - Uhura - I loved that she wanted to be the one to speak to the Klingons. No, "Captain, I'm frightened", even though she clearly was uneasy with the situation.

I found Star Trek Into Darkness fun in a way that Star Trek simply hadn't been in a very long time. Are there things I might have done differently? Yes. Am I sure that those things would've made it a better movie? No.

When I watch the Abramsverse films, it is almost like I've been transported back in time to a point when Star Trek didn't take itself so seriously.
Great list. Agree with all of them.

Franklin wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
When I watch the Abramsverse films, it is almost like I've been transported back in time to a point when Star Trek didn't take itself so seriously.
Yep.
Indeed.

Franklin wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I started with five, then went to eight, to ten, then eleven and finally settling on twelve. I could have probably reeled off twenty easy but wanted a post that didn't waste people's time.
Hey, that's what we're hear for.

I always liked it when Trek used humor in certain moments to keep a scene from becoming too serious or tense. This movie did that well. Among them:
-- The look on Khan's face when Kirk tries to explain to him that he's already "jumped off a moving car, off a bridge, into your shot glass" along with Kirk's realization that he probably should've kept his mouth shut is a nice moment. Showed Kirk's nervous energy, too.
-- McCoy telling Kirk that he and Uhura had something to do with it, too, when Kirk says Spock saved his life is a classic McCoy quip and keeps the scene from becoming sentimental or "bromantic."
Agree with both.

Pasi Nurminen wrote: View Post
I'm still dumbfounded that anyone can claim with a straight face that JJ Abrams captures the essence of TOS. TOS was never a big, loud, brainless action series revolving around explosions and flashing lights and loud noises. Saying JJ captures the essence of TOS is like saying Stephenie Meyer's Twilight captured the essence of Jane Austen's Persuasion. It's just absurd on its face.
No. No it isn't. Next?

Franklin wrote: View Post
Pasi Nurminen wrote: View Post
I'm still dumbfounded that anyone can claim with a straight face that JJ Abrams captures the essence of TOS. TOS was never a big, loud, brainless action series revolving around explosions and flashing lights and loud noises. Saying JJ captures the essence of TOS is like saying Stephenie Meyer's Twilight captured the essence of Jane Austen's Persuasion. It's just absurd on its face.
TOS featured all the explosions, flashing lights, and loud noises it could afford. If Roddenberry's budget had allowed it, there would've been even more.

As far as the action being brainless goes, . ST09 and STID were as deep in characterization and issues and plot as any good TOS episode was. TOS was not high drama, after all. It wasn't cerebral, either.

Capturing the essence of TOS to me means capturing the essence of the characters, whatever situations they're in. For the one thousandth time, in my opinion, I believe Abrams and his cohorts got them down perfectly.
Nailed it.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
As far as the action being brainless goes, . ST09 and STID were as deep in characterization and issues and plot as any good TOS episode was.
No.
Yes.
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Old June 7 2014, 03:30 AM   #41
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

urbandefault wrote: View Post
I agree with BillJ's post, except for one thing. The Spock scream bothers me, and I just realized why.

The build up of the reversed-parallel scene was almost right.

I think it would have worked better if Spock let the tension build in his face exactly like Shatner did in TWOK. But instead of the scream, he should have remained silent and then went on to beat the batcrap out of Khan. After his speech about choosing not to feel, releasing all the pent up emotion at that moment seemed a little soon.

Saving the outburst for later would have made it perfect.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, mirroring Shatner's "collapse" on his side of the wall would have been better. Then the Khan ass-whooping.
I could go with your edit, but I didn't really have a problem with the scream because I saw it as Spock finally giving in to the emotion and lashing out like a primal scream (his mom, his planet, and now the person Spock Prime told him would be an important part of his life, and with whom he'd do great things, is struck down prematurely). So in context, it worked for me. But it's fair to say it suffered (and maybe was cheapened) a bit for some by being identified with the Kirk scream, especially since that scream has become something of a joke over time.

Also, remember, at the time Spock didn't know if Khan was alive or dead. That is, he didn't know there was an ass to whip, yet.
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Old June 7 2014, 03:32 AM   #42
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

teacake wrote: View Post
^Yes what I love about that is it brings home that okay, Spock and Uhura are having a fight but you know is not going to be left out of any commentary on Spock? Kirk
Scenes like that are legion in movies. Police stakeouts, soldiers on transports on their way to or from battle, people at business meetings, in scenes of diplomacy. They're not always a "relationship moment", but they are subjects that one would consider unlikely or inappropriate based on the larger premise of the scene in question. I guess Trek is special in that it's supposed to rise above such things? Please.

You know when such "inappropriate" moments also happen? In real life. I've seen (or participated) in a few during meetings that were supposed to be "all business". One of my best friends spent 10 years in the military and has told me more than one story that mirrors that scene--and they took place "in transit" before deploying on dangerous assignments. I've witnessed such moments at funerals.

The fact the discussion is "inappropriate" to the circumstances is not a mistake--it's the main point. Such moments occur in "inappropriate" times and places rather routinely. The difference is, in real life, the dialogue is rarely as clever.
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Old June 7 2014, 03:43 AM   #43
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Why are you quoting me Ovation? I never said it was inappropriate, I was saying what I liked about the scene.
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Old June 7 2014, 03:45 AM   #44
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Ovation wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
^Yes what I love about that is it brings home that okay, Spock and Uhura are having a fight but you know is not going to be left out of any commentary on Spock? Kirk
Scenes like that are legion in movies. Police stakeouts, soldiers on transports on their way to or from battle, people at business meetings, in scenes of diplomacy. They're not always a "relationship moment", but they are subjects that one would consider unlikely or inappropriate based on the larger premise of the scene in question. I guess Trek is special in that it's supposed to rise above such things? Please.

You know when such "inappropriate" moments also happen? In real life. I've seen (or participated) in a few during meetings that were supposed to be "all business". One of my best friends spent 10 years in the military and has told me more than one story that mirrors that scene--and they took place "in transit" before deploying on dangerous assignments. I've witnessed such moments at funerals.

The fact the discussion is "inappropriate" to the circumstances is not a mistake--it's the main point. Such moments occur in "inappropriate" times and places rather routinely. The difference is, in real life, the dialogue is rarely as clever.
Good points. These "inappropriate" moments often occur in moments of stress, when emotions and senses are heightened, and people are uncomfortable or on edge.

It just occurred to me, think of poor Cupcake and the other guy having to listen to all that. Think they felt uncomfortable and a bit embarrassed about it? That's part of it, too. When something like that breaks out, the primaries involved don't give a rat's ass who hears it. That's real life.

Edited to add: since I used your quote, too, teacake, I thought I'd let you know that as I read it, I did figure you liked the scene. You point out Kirk was in the middle of it, he couldn't stop it, so he finally thought, "what the hell," and he gives his two cents worth as long as everyone's opening up. I liked that, too.
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Old June 7 2014, 03:49 AM   #45
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

teacake wrote: View Post
^Yes what I love about that is it brings home that okay, Spock and Uhura are having a fight but you know is not going to be left out of any commentary on Spock? Kirk
Oh, I know. That's what I love about it.
Kirk can't stay quiet for long, it's just not in him.
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