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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 13 2014, 02:59 PM   #166
Franklin
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
I know everyone complains to the hilt about her space undies scene, but I think it's one of those situations where she wanted him to peek.
Don't give the writers more credit than they deserve. They're not nearly that sophisticated. They admitted they threw it in for fan-service and they kind of regret it now (just as JJ has even regretted using so much lens-flare, after even his wife started bashing him for it). It was gratuitous by design.

Yanks wrote: View Post
You see more than this at the beach.
If it were Baywatch, The Movie, it would make sense. But to throw it in how they did, when they did, was gratuitous and unnecessary.

As for the lover's spats, again, it's context. Because JJ paced this film like Star Wars Episode IV, there's no space to allow Spock and Uhura to have a relationship moment. All the character moments between Uhura and Spock are happening in the middle of these action set-pieces and cliffhangers. This is what makes it seem "unprofessional". They should be focusing on the mission (as lives depend on their professionalism as military officers) but their minds are drifting back to their selfish romantic issues.

JJ tried to have his cake and eat it too by having Pike tear Kirk a new one for being unprofessional, but he didn't simultaneously allow the plot to punish Uhura and Spock for putting their relationship drama so out front and center when they should have been focused and professional. This, I think, reflects JJ's superficial understanding of the value of military discipline. Kirk sacrificed himself because the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few. But when it comes to the the rest of the crew he allows them to treat the Enterprise as Ridgemont High.

Not only that, JJ seems to misunderstand Vulcans. He treats the Vulcan adherence to discipline not as an asset but as an emotional handicap. So when Spock loses his cool, it's treated as a way to "humanize" him rather than it being him falling off the wagon of his pseudo-spiritual discipline. It's a subtlety because Spock's character arc intentionally allows him to veer towards humanity, but at never point does Spock reject logic (like Sybok, for instance). Spock integrates measured doses of human emotion into his life. It's the limited way Spock bends the rules that makes the character interesting, not having Spock completely lose it, cry, yell Khan, and run down the guy and punch him senseless.

This mis-reading of the Vulcan mysticism plays into feeling the need to give him a girlfriend. And how much easier can you find him a girlfriend than throwing Uhura at him? And to set it up all off-screen so it's just "there" with no rationale? Why should we believe it or care since we've seen no build-up at all? And they can't because (here we go again) the pace of the film won't allow it to slow down and show a budding romance. So instead you're just given a romance in-medias-res and are expected to just accept it. (And don't even mention pon farr.) It falls flat.
THE WOMEN!
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Old June 13 2014, 03:04 PM   #167
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

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Old June 13 2014, 03:20 PM   #168
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

That Michael Giaccino piece is lovely.

Yanks wrote: View Post
I know everyone complains to the hilt about her space undies scene, but I think it's one of those situations where she wanted him to peak.
I liked Alice Eve well enough when I first saw it, but on my second viewing I realized she's only marginally more convincing as a "weapons expert" than Denise Richards was in the role of a nuclear scientist in... whatever Brosnan Bond movie that was.

She did have a significant role later in the movie, for all intents and purposes she saved the Enterprise.
Would that it were true, but there's nothing involved in her role in deciphering the torpedoes that any other random character couldn't have done, unfortunately. She doesn't work out the puzzle or employ any discernible expertise, she just rips out a component.
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Old June 13 2014, 05:02 PM   #169
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

mos6507 wrote:
Don't give the writers more credit than they deserve. They're not nearly that sophisticated. They admitted they threw it in for fan-service
Wasn't it at least partly a casualty of script changes?

Yanks wrote:
I know everyone complains to the hilt about her space undies scene, but I think it's one of those situations where she wanted him to peak.
Maybe she wanted him to peek, but I don't think it's quite enough to get him to peak.
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Old June 13 2014, 05:41 PM   #170
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
I know everyone complains to the hilt about her space undies scene, but I think it's one of those situations where she wanted him to peek.
Don't give the writers more credit than they deserve. They're not nearly that sophisticated. They admitted they threw it in for fan-service and they kind of regret it now (just as JJ has even regretted using so much lens-flare, after even his wife started bashing him for it). It was gratuitous by design.
I know, and I don't care. Come on, Star Trek (and TV in general) has ALWAYS done that. I don't see what the big issue here is.

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
You see more than this at the beach.
If it were Baywatch, The Movie, it would make sense. But to throw it in how they did, when they did, was gratuitous and unnecessary.
Really? ... and this isn't?


I could provide about a million examples just in trek. (Males too, but I don't make it a habit of catpuring those )

No reason to go bannana's over this occurance.

mos6507 wrote: View Post
As for the lover's spats, again, it's context. Because JJ paced this film like Star Wars Episode IV, there's no space to allow Spock and Uhura to have a relationship moment. All the character moments between Uhura and Spock are happening in the middle of these action set-pieces and cliffhangers. This is what makes it seem "unprofessional". They should be focusing on the mission (as lives depend on their professionalism as military officers) but their minds are drifting back to their selfish romantic issues.
Exactly!! It wasn't the context of the conversation as much as it was the timing. (I do have some context issues, but that's not what chapped my arse)

mos6507 wrote: View Post
JJ tried to have his cake and eat it too by having Pike tear Kirk a new one for being unprofessional, but he didn't simultaneously allow the plot to punish Uhura and Spock for putting their relationship drama so out front and center when they should have been focused and professional. This, I think, reflects JJ's superficial understanding of the value of military discipline. Kirk sacrificed himself because the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few. But when it comes to the the rest of the crew he allows them to treat the Enterprise as Ridgemont High.
I think this I can almost forgive duo to it being a movie, not a TV series. Not sure this could have been seriously achieved in a movie. (or even two)

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Not only that, JJ seems to misunderstand Vulcans. He treats the Vulcan adherence to discipline not as an asset but as an emotional handicap. So when Spock loses his cool, it's treated as a way to "humanize" him rather than it being him falling off the wagon of his pseudo-spiritual discipline. It's a subtlety because Spock's character arc intentionally allows him to veer towards humanity, but at never point does Spock reject logic (like Sybok, for instance). Spock integrates measured doses of human emotion into his life. It's the limited way Spock bends the rules that makes the character interesting, not having Spock completely lose it, cry, yell Khan, and run down the guy and punch him senseless.
***STANDS AND APPLAUDS!!!!*** No more needs to be said. Thank you. They have totally lost Spock as we knew him.

mos6507 wrote: View Post
This mis-reading of the Vulcan mysticism plays into feeling the need to give him a girlfriend. And how much easier can you find him a girlfriend than throwing Uhura at him? And to set it up all off-screen so it's just "there" with no rationale? Why should we believe it or care since we've seen no build-up at all? And they can't because (here we go again) the pace of the film won't allow it to slow down and show a budding romance. So instead you're just given a romance in-medias-res and are expected to just accept it. (And don't even mention pon farr.) It falls flat.
Interesting, I hadn't considered the mysticism angle. I'll need to ponder that one a bit. I think we need to remember, this relationship was going on long before the first movie. So there is time here. (albeit we don't see it much, just like 7 & Chuckles in Endgame)
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Old June 13 2014, 05:47 PM   #171
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

BigJake wrote: View Post
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She did have a significant role later in the movie, for all intents and purposes she saved the Enterprise.
Would that it were true, but there's nothing involved in her role in deciphering the torpedoes that any other random character couldn't have done, unfortunately. She doesn't work out the puzzle or employ any discernible expertise, she just rips out a component.
You forget her presense on the Enterprise is the only reason ADM Marcus ceased his attack. The Enterprise would surely have been destroyed. I've always deduced, because we weren't told precicley, that that was a reason she put herself on the Enterprise. There are quotes in the movie that hint at this, but I'm too lazy to find them right now
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Old June 13 2014, 05:49 PM   #172
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Maybe she wanted him to peek, but I don't think it's quite enough to get him to peak.
Nice...

I'm such a horrible speller.
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Old June 13 2014, 06:12 PM   #173
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Yanks wrote: View Post
You forget her presense on the Enterprise is the only reason ADM Marcus ceased his attack.
I thought that's where they were going, except that he didn't cease his attack; he just beamed her aboard and carried on. It's Scotty that saves them, by sabotaging the Vengeance -- which was going to happen with or without her.

Basically nothing at all happens in the script that requires her to be there except the flashing scene. Trek is no stranger to skin, but it is unusual for an ostensibly major character serve no narrative purpose at all outside of that. So I get why that bugs people.
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Old June 13 2014, 06:25 PM   #174
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

When I hear the phrase "Vulcan mysticism" I have to do a double take. The standard bearers of rational, scientific thought in Star Trek are "mystics"? When did they become the frakking Jedis??
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Old June 13 2014, 06:32 PM   #175
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

^ Well, they do have all the mind-melding and ritual and meditation and stuff. Vulcan society as Trek portrays it is big into "logic" and science but has all manner of qabalistic trappings.

In retrospect it would have made no small amount of sense for the Vulcan "logic" tradition to be a straight-up outgrowth / component of some form of theology or religion. That would explain a lot.
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Old June 13 2014, 07:00 PM   #176
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Somewhere along the line the Vulcans went off the rails.
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Old June 13 2014, 07:01 PM   #177
Set Harth
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

The plural of Jedi is Jedi.

BigJake wrote:
In retrospect it would have made no small amount of sense for the Vulcan "logic" tradition to be a straight-up outgrowth / component of some form of theology or religion.
There's a first time for everything, I guess...
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Old June 13 2014, 07:08 PM   #178
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Somewhere along the line the Vulcans went off the rails.
You mean around "Amok Time"?

Set Harth wrote:
There's a first time for everything, I guess...
The real-world history of logic and philosophy might surprise you.
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Old June 13 2014, 07:33 PM   #179
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

No, I know... I was just making a comment on a stereotypical fundamentalist's relation to the concept of logic. Sorry.
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Old June 13 2014, 07:34 PM   #180
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Re: Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Ah, I get you, cool.
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