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Old June 9 2014, 04:09 PM   #166
Yanks
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
The only time I personally felt Star Trek was "racist" (or more accurately was "WTF"...) was TNG's episode Code of Honour.

Uhura took part in many firsts in TV abeit she didn't get alot of meat with that part, but that's 60's TV, not trek in my opinion.

Geordi was another major position, Chief Engineer is nothing to spit at. I do think they would have given him "more" but his acting didn't quite allow that.

Sisko - first black Commanding Officer to anchor a series.

Travis in Enterprise, another smaller part but positionally important. Like Uhura, he just wasn't part of the "big three".

Don't agree with much of anything in OP, but this should always be an open topic.

Don't forget trek also gave us the first woman Commanding Officer to anchor a series.

Trek has done lots of thing right, some wrong, but to say it is inherently racist is nuts if you ask me.
Your post is interesting:

1. As aforementioned, I found nothing "racist" in Code of Honor. (That just seems to be a white 'thang' on Star Trek boards).
I, as a white guy, found that episode to be demeaning to blacks.

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
2. Uhura was hindered by 60s television, and seems to be one of the 'big three' in the current movies. (I hate that term 'big three' btw).
Yeah, it has been overused throughout the years abeit the largest factor in Star Trek's success. Good point about our nuUhura... they've done much better with her. They actually gave her skill and talent in liguistics. (much like Hoshi (oriental) I might add)

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
3. Geordi could have been more.
I think his acting abilities hindered that. I thought they ended up doing the same type thing in DS9 and Voyager as well. They seemed to write the scripts/stories to center around the better actors. Don't know that that's a bad thing.

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
4. Sisko was a badass.
Wonder why our first black captain had to bee a bad ass. Why not more like Picard?

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
5. Travis was ignored, and came off token-ish, imo.
Agree. I did enjoy the episodes that featured him, but they were few and far between.

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
6. You mention Janeway....Good. There is also the female captain in Enterprise, which de-canonizes 'Turnabout Intruder.' (Something ENT actually did well!)
Agree. CAPT Hernandez was awesome. We actually got to know her unlike other female Captains thoughout the years.

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
7. What about Asians? Even though Kim is the stereotypical weak Asian guy, Sulu in the 60s series is cool - albeit hindered by Shatner and 60s television - and in the movies is given some scenes to shine.
Sulu was more stereotypical than Harry I thought. Hell, Harry played the clarinet

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
'Race' isn't just a black/white thing.

8. As aforementioned, the OP, who I don't believe is a black person but an individual trying to start a flame war, does bring up some interesting points. Usually whites, due to the aforementioned 'white privilege' don't see racism where people of color do.
Agree, my fault. Most comments in this thread seemed driven toward the black race... but your right. Race is all shapes and sizes.
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Old June 9 2014, 04:20 PM   #167
Dennis
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

I think the one way in which Trek is somewhat reflexively, perhaps insidiously "racist" is the tendency to categorize entire populations in terms of a single or limited group of qualities - Klingons are violent, Ferengi are greedy etc.
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Old June 9 2014, 04:23 PM   #168
Joel_Kirk
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

Yanks wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
The only time I personally felt Star Trek was "racist" (or more accurately was "WTF"...) was TNG's episode Code of Honour.

Uhura took part in many firsts in TV abeit she didn't get alot of meat with that part, but that's 60's TV, not trek in my opinion.

Geordi was another major position, Chief Engineer is nothing to spit at. I do think they would have given him "more" but his acting didn't quite allow that.

Sisko - first black Commanding Officer to anchor a series.

Travis in Enterprise, another smaller part but positionally important. Like Uhura, he just wasn't part of the "big three".

Don't agree with much of anything in OP, but this should always be an open topic.

Don't forget trek also gave us the first woman Commanding Officer to anchor a series.

Trek has done lots of thing right, some wrong, but to say it is inherently racist is nuts if you ask me.
Your post is interesting:

1. As aforementioned, I found nothing "racist" in Code of Honor. (That just seems to be a white 'thang' on Star Trek boards).
I, as a white guy, found that episode to be demeaning to blacks.
Well, I think the episode was pretty progressive, myself. I think they should have revisited that planet and the people again. And, write them in a stronger story.

As it stands, the episode was just hindered by shaky writing which is true for a lot of 1st season episodes in any series when finding its ground.

(If I ever do write a Star Trek novel, which I wouldn't mind doing in the future, I may revisit Ligonia and maybe have a Eurasian female love interest opposite a Ligonian male).


Yeah, it has been overused throughout the years abeit the largest factor in Star Trek's success. Good point about our nuUhura... they've done much better with her. They actually gave her skill and talent in liguistics. (much like Hoshi (oriental) I might add)
Hoshi was alright, she wasn't a stellar character.

IMO.

Wonder why our first black captain had to bee a bad ass. Why not more like Picard?
Nah, being a badass was destiny.
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Old June 9 2014, 04:36 PM   #169
JarodRussell
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Hey, the guy Picard chose was less white than Data, so there.
That actually raises an interesting point: could Data have been black, and would it have ever been turned into an issue for the characters in-universe? Like, for example, Dr. Pulaski asking Data for his reason to have a black skin. Or when Data makes his offspring and she chooses a different skin color, having people ask her why she did that.
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Old June 9 2014, 04:40 PM   #170
MacLeod
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

Dennis wrote: View Post
I think the one way in which Trek is somewhat reflexively, perhaps insidiously "racist" is the tendency to categorize entire populations in terms of a single or limited group of qualities - Klingons are violent, Ferengi are greedy etc.

But is that really being racist or simply a matter of how TV/Film works? After all sterotyping of nationalites can occur in film/TV.
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Old June 9 2014, 04:45 PM   #171
Joel_Kirk
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Hey, the guy Picard chose was less white than Data, so there.
That actually raises an interesting point: could Data have been black, and would it have ever been turned into an issue for the characters in-universe? Like, for example, Dr. Pulaski asking Data for his reason to have a black skin. Or when Data makes his offspring and she chooses a different skin color, having people ask her why she did that.
Well, if it was the 24th Century, I would wonder why Pulaski would even have the need to ask? (Because everyone is supposed to be accepting of one another and all that jazz).

While watching the sfdebris review some weeks back, I also thought it would have been interesting to see Data's offspring choose maybe a girl with black skin (or at least dark skin) because maybe the offspring was intrigued by the 'beauty' of an Earth model or something.
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Old June 9 2014, 04:49 PM   #172
JarodRussell
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Hey, the guy Picard chose was less white than Data, so there.
That actually raises an interesting point: could Data have been black, and would it have ever been turned into an issue for the characters in-universe? Like, for example, Dr. Pulaski asking Data for his reason to have a black skin. Or when Data makes his offspring and she chooses a different skin color, having people ask her why she did that.
Well, if it was the 24th Century, I would wonder why Pulaski would even have the need to ask? (Because everyone is supposed to be accepting of one another and all that jazz).

While watching the sfdebris review some weeks back, I also thought it would have been interesting to see Data's offspring choose maybe a girl with black skin (or at least dark skin) because maybe the offspring was intrigued by the 'beauty' of an Earth model or something.
Well she did ask him for his name choice and other things. So I imagined it as a casual question from her perspective (but a non-casual question for parts of the audience).

What if, in All Good Things, Data didn't just go with a grey stripe in his hair, but changed his gender or skin color or something. They never went there, even though from Data's perspective, it could have been an interesting experiment.
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Old June 9 2014, 05:54 PM   #173
Shawnster
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

Wonder why our first black captain had to bee a bad ass. Why not more like Picard.
With DS9 being the first spin off fron TNG, the creators wanted to go a different direction and didn't want or need another Picard.

Sisko would have been a badass regardless of race.
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Old June 9 2014, 05:58 PM   #174
Dennis
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
I think the one way in which Trek is somewhat reflexively, perhaps insidiously "racist" is the tendency to categorize entire populations in terms of a single or limited group of qualities - Klingons are violent, Ferengi are greedy etc.

But is that really being racist or simply a matter of how TV/Film works? After all sterotyping of nationalites can occur in film/TV.
Those aren't mutually exclusive. Stereotyping lends itself to bigotry.
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Old June 9 2014, 06:05 PM   #175
Bad Thoughts
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

Shawnster wrote: View Post
Wonder why our first black captain had to bee a bad ass. Why not more like Picard.
With DS9 being the first spin off fron TNG, the creators wanted to go a different direction and didn't want or need another Picard.

Sisko would have been a badass regardless of race.
Father, husband, religious figure, strategist, and badass--many things that Picard was not.
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Old June 9 2014, 06:22 PM   #176
JirinPanthosa
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

T'Girl wrote: View Post
You've completely misunderstood the episode.

Lutan wanted Yar to fight and kill his wife Yareena, Lutan had absolutely no personal or sexual interest in Yar. Any interest Lutan showed toward Yar was a pretense to insight Yareena's jealousy, so that she would challenge Yar to a duel.

By dialog, Lutan had tried this before, but Yareena kept killing her opponents.

This (the duel) was the only way in their society that Lutan could directly gain his wife's power and wealth.
Have you ever known a man to kidnap a woman with intention to conscript into matrimony without expectation to consummate said arrangement?

Even if you're correct and his intention was always to have Yar kill his wife then decide to graciously let her go, that suggests a civilization that places ritual, institutionalized machismo and superstition over interplanetary relationships and common sense. And also considers women to be the property of their husbands.

@Joel_Kirk

By 'Their' I meant obviously the editors and publishers for the magazine, and it's pretty insulting and ridiculous of you to insinuate I was making a 'Those people' type reference to an entire racial group. Again, obviously, I do not think that there exist no black people who watch Star Trek. However I think if you took a poll there would be a statistically significant correlation between Star Trek viewership and ethnicity.

And it's also pretty hypocritical for you to make that kind of knee-jerk accusation while at the same time insisting that anybody who disagrees with you isn't in the 'Club' of people whose opinion counts. If you mean to really debate this issue, please refrain from all knee-jerk stock straw man attacks and other ad-hominem tactics.

Nobody is claiming Code of Honor is the only racist thing about Star Trek, however I am arguing it is the only real example that is far above the norm for contemporary network television. You keep saying "What's the problem with an attraction between a dark skinned alien and Eurasian skinned human?" Many people have responded, there is no problem, but there's a big distinction between an attraction and a kidnapping. And instead of responding to that point you keep throwing out racism accusations and negation by association attacks.

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Old June 9 2014, 06:33 PM   #177
Sran
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

Afrika Bambaata wrote: View Post
The original television series - The one African character, Uhura is nothing more than a telephone operator and note how she sits at the BACK of the bridge. She also protrayed as an object of lust.
Nichelle Nichols was also an important role model for many young African American children and adolescents, according to none other than Dr. Martin Luther King, who urged her to remain with the series after she told him she was considering leaving.

Afrika Bambaata wrote: View Post
Star Trek: The Motion Picture - The first Star Trek film released in 1979 features no new African characters which is odd considering that by the 23rd Century there will be over 6 billion Africans on Earth and less than a billion white people. Yet the Enterprise crew appears to 99.9% white.
The Enterprise crew? The Enterprise crew was one of the most diverse in the history of Starfleet up to that point. Just look at the number of non-human races standing on the rec deck during the Epsilon IX scene.

Afrika Bambaata wrote: View Post
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan – This is one of the most despicable and racist of the Star Trek films. An African Starfleet captain played by the late Paul Winfield is captured by an evil white man and controlled like house slave with an alien slug placed in his brain. Later, after failing his “master”, Winfield’s character kills himself in shame for failing to serve the commands of his white master.
Wrong. Clark Terrell sacrificed himself to save Kirk and the others, as he didn't want to hurt another Starfleet officer. You missed the point of that scene--other than the eel leaving Chekov.

And Terrel was from Canada.

Afrika Bambaata wrote: View Post
Star Trek: The Voyage Home – We learn in this film that the Federation of Planets (which is supposed to be diverse union of many races) is led by a white alien.
Hiram Roth was human (as far as we know). You're thinking of the Federation President from TUC.

Afrika Bambaata wrote: View Post
Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country – An African Starfleet Admiral played by the late Brock Peters is portrayed as being an evil, untrustworthy character.
I don't think Cartwright was evil, merely misguided. And the decision to include his character in the conspiracy was meant to show how far-reaching it was, and how many people didn't want peace between the Klingons and the Federation.

Afrika Bambaata wrote: View Post
Star Trek: The Next Generation – This new series has African actors play characters who are either blind (Geordi La Forge) with the temperament of a house slave or violent aliens such as Lieutenant Worf.
I don't know how others feel, but I've never thought of Geordi as merely a blind man. To me, he represents what people can achieve if they work to overcome their handicaps and weaknesses.

Afrika Bambaata wrote: View Post
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine – Star Trek manages to redeem itself somewhat with the character of Benjamin Sisko. The series begins with an evil pale alien creature refusing to help Sisko save his wife but at the end of the series it turns out his character is not really African at all but some kind of alien puppet whose fate is controlled by beings who appear to be white women.
You need to stop this, because you've no idea what you're talking about. Sisko was human. His mother was human. Her body was taken over by a Prophet, but neither she or her son were in any way not human.

Afrika Bambaata wrote: View Post
Star Trek: Insurrection – In this Star Trek film, the Enterprise comes across and defends an all-white race who are being attacked by a darker skin tone people.
People who happened to be the exact same race as those they're attacking.

Afrika Bambaata wrote: View Post
Star Trek: Nemesis - At the end of this film, Picard selects another white male to be his First Officer.
As that was a deleted scene, it's debatable if it actually happened. In any case, Worf eventually becomes Picard's XO.

J. Allen wrote: View Post
I disagree. The people behind the original Star Trek made great efforts to have diversity on the bridge, and in other places in the Trek universe. As for the other examples, I think you're searching hard for it, and since you're looking for racism, you will find it.
I'd add that his post contains more ignorance than any of the series or films he's maligning.

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Old June 9 2014, 06:35 PM   #178
Vandervecken
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

Dennis wrote: View Post
I think the one way in which Trek is somewhat reflexively, perhaps insidiously "racist" is the tendency to categorize entire populations in terms of a single or limited group of qualities - Klingons are violent, Ferengi are greedy etc.
To call these stereotypes is like saying Vulcans are "stereotyped" as almost all being subject to their special discipline of logic. These are species-level characteristics, and may very well be the result of species-level genetic predispositions. I'd be surprised if they weren't! That's not racism, that's reasonable science fiction.

Meanwhile: Rom and Nog were, at times, given to a little lip service to their Ferengi heritage and the Rules of Acquisition, but Rom, as far as I could see, loved engineering more than anything else, and Nog loved service in Starfleet. Two of the three most-appearing Ferengi.

The question that the existence of these species traits begs, though, is what is the human "stereotype" among other species--or really better yet, what is the alien perception of the defining characteristic of humans? I'm not saying Quark's perspective is that of every other species, but it might be the general alien viewpoint:


"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes."

Is Quark stereotyping humans, or is he touching on some species-wide truth here? (I lean in favor of number 2.)
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Old June 9 2014, 07:07 PM   #179
JarodRussell
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes."

Is Quark stereotyping humans, or is he touching on some species-wide truth here? (I lean in favor of number 2.)
It's not a stereotype if it's true.
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Old June 9 2014, 07:51 PM   #180
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Re: The racist legacy of Star Trek

Sran wrote: View Post
Afrika Bambaata wrote:
Star Trek: Insurrection – In this Star Trek film, the Enterprise comes across and defends an all-white race who are being attacked by a darker skin tone people.
People who happened to be the exact same race as those they're attacking.
A point with no point. You're saying is that the two groups in Insurrection are biologically the same except for differences in skin color and appearance? That's the only thing that "race" has ever meant.

Not to say I support the OP in any way. And not to say that you're wrong. It's just that your point doesn't refute anything.

Also you're undercut by the fact that you used "race" at all. If it was somehow provable that the Son'a were a different "race" than the Ba'ku, would the OP then have a valid point?
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