RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,521
Posts: 5,512,252
Members: 25,138
Currently online: 466
Newest member: Tosty82

TrekToday headlines

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 6 2014, 01:46 PM   #16
Ru ru, chu
Fleet Admiral
 
Ru ru, chu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Ru ru, chu's Twitter Profile
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

Psion wrote: View Post
I remember reading somewhere that Tom Hanks was originally sought for the role of Cochrane.
Yep. And Hanks is a huge Trekkie, so he wanted to do it, but there was a scheduling conflict with That Thing You Do! and so he had to bow out.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Ru ru, chu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 02:46 PM   #17
Khan 2.0
Captain
 
Khan 2.0's Avatar
 
Location: earth...but when?...spock?
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

wonder how much box office Hanks wouldve added? Maybe another 100m
Khan 2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 02:55 PM   #18
Richard Baker
Captain
 
Richard Baker's Avatar
 
Location: Warrior, AL
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

The only thing I did like about Cochrane in that movie was that when you get a change to visit a hero you have held in high esteem your whole life only to discover that they were nothing like you imagined. Once you get past that one surprise you do wonder how this man could have a remote chance of creating what he was famous for. Even if he was a full on Doc Brown genius, that base did not seem to have the facilities to produce a Warp craft.

Why go back to first contact in the first place. The Borg were interested in federation technology, why not visit Earth during the time of 'Q Who?'. Nobody would know what the Borg were still and assimilating the planet might take longer, but that Sphere with the queen could pretty much do anything they wanted to do before the Federation figured out what was going on.
Richard Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 03:07 PM   #19
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

Eliminating Earth as a factor could probably have better been accomplished by going farther back in time; gathering technology could have been achieved at a later date. But ensuring that the Federation is born could only be accomplished in 2063, because apparently Earth was a key ingredient in that, and Earth couldn't participate if not for the curious encounter with Vulcans at that date.

So perhaps the Queen just went back to ensure that Cochrane flies? Alone, the poor man might have achieved nothing. But send back people from the 24th century, and their "repairs" to the warp contraption would ensure that the thing gets warpborne - after a few iterations of time travel at least. Sacrificing one Cube and one Sphere and one body might have been a small price for that.

Second-guessing the Borg is something our heroes didn't have the time for. But it's something the audience certainly can do on their spare time...

As for Cochrane's achievements, I trust most of the work would have been done before the war, in which Cochrane apparently lost a great deal (in both senses of the expression, I guess). But Earth wasn't bombed back to stone age in the war, as evidenced in various episodes; Cochrane could still have had powerful backers. Why did he install passenger seats on his craft if not for observers from the funding parties?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 08:59 PM   #20
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

Melakon wrote: View Post
^ Yeah, I had a big problem with how they painted Cochrane. He was no longer a contemplative engineer/test pilot with some parochial attitudes as in "Metamorphosis", but presented as an alcoholic loon who didn't seem capable of adding up numbers on paper, and much less being able to design a warp ship. It's not James Cromwell's fault though, he did what the script asked for.
This, plus the fact that Picard never bothers to ask Lily what her actual involvement was with the Phoenix (he seems to assume she's some random gun-toting love interest who is only here for dramatic purposes) leads me to my personal theory that Zephram Cochrane had nothing to do with warp drive.

That rather, it was LILY who invented the warp drive and Zephram and was just a test pilot that Lily hired because she had no spaceflight experience and no practical knowledge of how to pilot a spacecraft. Cochrane simply took the credit for the invention because 1) Everyone on the Enterprise already believed he did it anyway and 2) Lily wasn't there to set the record straight.

That, to me, finally explains why Cochrane tries to run away just before the flight starts. "I don't want to be a statue!" It's not that he's afraid of the fame and fortune (he's clearly not, as he tells Riker later), it's that he's actually having a huge crisis of conscience getting rich and famous for something he never actually did (and also, he knows that Lily is probably going to murder him when she finds out).
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2014, 10:18 PM   #21
Kevman7987
Captain
 
Kevman7987's Avatar
 
Location: Erie, PA, USA
View Kevman7987's Twitter Profile
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
...my personal theory that Zephram Cochrane had nothing to do with warp drive.

That rather, it was LILY who invented the warp drive and Zephram and was just a test pilot that Lily hired...
Ah, but Zephram Cochrane didn't even like to fly; he took trains.

"You think I wanna see the stars? I don't even like to fly! I take trains!" -Zephram Cochrane

I think Lily and Zephram were both engineers/physicists. Lily was probably just as qualified to pilot the thing as Cochrane, but let him/forced him to take the front seat because the invention was based on his ideas and technology.
__________________
"Don't do it, Meat!"
"Don't do it, Cheese!"
Kevman7987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2014, 12:23 AM   #22
Makarov
Captain
 
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

I'm trying to imagine Riker doing the NOOOOOO!!! *ship smash* scene.

Frakes is really good in scenes where he's angry. "Shut up! As in close your mouth and stop talking."
Makarov is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 9 2014, 11:27 PM   #23
Aldo
Admiral
 
Aldo's Avatar
 
Location: Somewhere Out there beneath the pale moonlight.
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

Richard Baker wrote: View Post

Why go back to first contact in the first place. The Borg were interested in federation technology, why not visit Earth during the time of 'Q Who?'. Nobody would know what the Borg were still and assimilating the planet might take longer, but that Sphere with the queen could pretty much do anything they wanted to do before the Federation figured out what was going on.
I'm not sure how far this idea actually got, but the novelization has a making of...section and they discuss how an early idea was to have them all travel back in time to the Renaissance. The notion of having the crew running around in Toga's tickled them I suppose. I think the reason they didn't go that route is because a period piece would be too expensive.
__________________
Don't believe everything I say.
Aldo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 10 2014, 12:14 AM   #24
RunawayStarShip
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

I always assumed that the Phoenix was a secret U.S. government project that Cochrane and Sloane were in charge of until something went horribly awry during WWIII. Heck, they have access to a former nuclear missile. In the aftermath of the war, they probably figured that they could finish it and sell it to the highest bidder.

The narrative that the 24th century had is just too perfect. There's just probably a lot in the background that we still don't know about.
RunawayStarShip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 10 2014, 05:10 AM   #25
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
...my personal theory that Zephram Cochrane had nothing to do with warp drive.

That rather, it was LILY who invented the warp drive and Zephram and was just a test pilot that Lily hired...
Ah, but Zephram Cochrane didn't even like to fly; he took trains.
Of course. He's probably a gutless fighter jock who washed out of NASA before the war and spent the last five years curled up in the bottom of a tequila bottle until Lily came along and talked his drunk ass into helping her with the Phoenix's orbiter.

And you wonder why he doesn't like to fly?

What's kind of interesting is that Cochrane doesn't seem to DO anything when the Enterprise crew is running around repairing the ship. It's not just his "Aw, fuck it" attitude when the ship gets busted, it's the fact that he spends most of that time skulking around drinking and otherwise shows no interest in the ship whatsoever. This is NOT AT ALL a man who could have overcome the kind of adversity and uncertainty he would have inevitably encountered in the design, construction and testing of the Phoenix.

I think Picard was absolutely right when he suggested the designer of the ship wouldn't abandon it, and had he known that Cochrane did EXACTLY that, he probably would have realized what was really going on. The inescapable fact is that even if it was Cochrane's scientific theories or equations that made warp drive possible -- which I highly doubt -- it's abundantly clear that the SHIP was Lily's baby. She even intimates this Picard when she tells him she spent several months pulling scraps together to build the cockpit; I can't imagine Zephram Cochrane doing much of anything during that time other than drooling on the floor blasting 60s tunes at full volume.

Most telling of all: Picard tells Lily "Actually we're not unlike yourself and Doctor Cochrane." Lily Chuckles, but doesn't get a chance to respond to that comment. If they hadn't run into the Borg at that exact moment I am 100% sure she would have said something like "You mean half your crew are a bunch of drunken losers who don't know a warp coil from a windshield wiper?"
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!

Last edited by Crazy Eddie; June 10 2014 at 05:30 AM.
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 10 2014, 05:34 AM   #26
LMFAOschwarz
Fleet Captain
 
LMFAOschwarz's Avatar
 
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

Another thing to throw into the mix is the fact that Cochrane, in the movie, owned a telescope (and a pretty nice one, at that!). That isn't something I'd associate with the tequila-swilling, disgruntled character whom is being described here. Of course, it's something he simply may have found along the way, as the Meade LX200 would basically be an antique in 2063. Even now, it's an older model...not that age would affect its performance.

Then again, people being individuals...who knows?
LMFAOschwarz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 10 2014, 11:29 PM   #27
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

There's no doubt Cochrane knows his astronomy at least as a hobby (he can find Leo even while totally wasted) so the telescope is definitely his. But then, being an amateur astronomer does not imply having the wherewithal to design and build a space ship capable of FTL travel.

A further thing to remember is the fact that Lily gives a lot of clues that suggest she might be ex-military. Tellingly, she tells Picard "You're not the first man to get a thrill from murdering someone! I see it all the time!" So what the hell has Lily been doing lately that has involved seeing a lot of murders? When you consider that when Picard finds her she is shooting at him with a machinegun in a nuclear missile silo, she probably means that she saw it happen a lot during the war, which further explains how she got access to the missile silo in the first place (she was probably stationed there when the war ended).
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 11 2014, 08:10 PM   #28
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
What's kind of interesting is that Cochrane doesn't seem to DO anything when the Enterprise crew is running around repairing the ship. It's not just his "Aw, fuck it" attitude when the ship gets busted, it's the fact that he spends most of that time skulking around drinking and otherwise shows no interest in the ship whatsoever. This is NOT AT ALL a man who could have overcome the kind of adversity and uncertainty he would have inevitably encountered in the design, construction and testing of the Phoenix.
While I don't share your theory that Cochrane didn't invent warp drive, I do, in retropect, think that he was a poorly-envisioned character (in FC, not "Metamorphosis;" Glenn Corbett's Cochrane couldn't have been more different). This guy is totally unbelievable as a scientist/inventor/doctor/etc. I think the writers of the film simply focused more on the "humorous" aspects of the character while completely ignoring the illogic that this old drunk womanizing coward created something as earth-shattering as warp drive.

Someone earlier mentioned the idea that the person you most admire turning out to not be at all what you expected when you finally meet him. While there's absolutely nothing wrong with that premise, it still has to be bound by logic. If Cochrane was presented as a great scientific mind but also a complete asshole, then it would have worked better. Cromwell's version reminds me of the dudes hanging out at the local bar, who probably couldn't even figure out how to use a smartphone, much less invent a spacecraft FTL drive system.
__________________
Dont believe everything you read on the internet.
Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 12 2014, 05:38 AM   #29
GalaxyX
Rear Admiral
 
GalaxyX's Avatar
 
Location: Canada
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Frankly, I have a hard time imagining that Patrick Stewart would have been happy with the script had Picard been part of the fish-out-of-water comedy storyline.
Or even better, they could have changed it so that Cochrane wasn't the drunk womanizing idiot that he was portrayed as.
My God yes this is the thing I hated most about the movie!!!!

It starts off as a pretty decent sci-fi action flick....for about 5 mins. Then the rest of the movie is half spending time with Drunkie, and the other half is the Borg Queen trying to have sex with Data.

"Drunkie" is never, for even one second, believable to me as a man genius enough to be the inventor of Warp Drive. He's barely passable as a typical low IQ redneck.

Fucking Paramount's shoving of "comedy" in every Trek movie since ST IV is the culprit for this.
__________________
Top Gear America: Jay Leno, Adam Carolla, Tim Allen. DONE!
GalaxyX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 12 2014, 07:50 PM   #30
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: First Contact Time Travel Plot

Dunno... Cochrane there reminds me a lot about a certain acquaintance of mine who definitely counts as an inventor and a rocket scientist. He's not that fallen on hard times, but I could see it happen in theory.

Cochrane need not have invented anything for, what, the last ten years? His big project would have been on back burner for about that length of time if the onset of WWIII cut off his supply of titanium and whatnot. That's plenty of time for a man to change - enough that when pressed back to duty, he wouldn't even really know how to proceed. Another reason for him to run off to the forest for a quick flask or two of encouragement...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
star trek viii

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:45 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.