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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old June 2 2014, 01:34 PM   #16
Timo
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Re: SpaceDock questions

This would require a depressurization each time a ship comes or leaves
Well, not with ST:TMP level technology...

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Old June 2 2014, 11:26 PM   #17
Mark_Nguyen
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Re: SpaceDock questions

Timo wrote: View Post
On the other hand, we never learned that Commander Quinteros would have commanded Starbase 47 in "11001001". He might have been in command of the MRO ops only, or even of the Enterprise computer overhaul exclusively. As the events unfolded, there would have been no time or reason to call anybody higher up the chain of command of the starbase.
Well, after the E-D had warped away, everyone was scurrying around but it was Quinteros who was telling everyone that they were rushing repairs on a ship to pursue. I suppose he MIGHT have been relaying a report from higher up, but it certainly sounded like it was his call. Likewise, when all the not-Picard-or-Riker crew gathered together, it would make more sense to gather in the ACTUAL ops rather than some specialized mission office.

Whether DS9 ever was a starbase, debate rages on. Sisko himself is not to be trusted much, as he also felt his runabouts were "starships"...
O'Brien called his home port "the Federation Starbase Deep Space Nine" before he was once arrested by the Cardassians on their conspiracy of that week. I like to think that all the "Deep Space" (and perhaps "Farspace") installations are starbases that are run by the locals but administered by Starfleet. Thus DS#, Farspace Station Earhart, Farpoint Station (if that debacle had played out), and possibly even places like Lya Station Alpha (which is a mushroom facility) could be non-Starfleet property used by the fleet as a proper installation.

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Old June 3 2014, 05:47 AM   #18
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: SpaceDock questions

Maybe instead of air, the Spacedock can simply be heated?
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Old June 3 2014, 11:36 AM   #19
Timo
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Re: SpaceDock questions

Well, after the E-D had warped away, everyone was scurrying around but it was Quinteros who was telling everyone that they were rushing repairs on a ship to pursue. I suppose he MIGHT have been relaying a report from higher up, but it certainly sounded like it was his call. Likewise, when all the not-Picard-or-Riker crew gathered together, it would make more sense to gather in the ACTUAL ops rather than some specialized mission office.
But if Quinteros was in charge of running the repair yard, it would be his call. And the next step up in any case would be the four-pipper in charge of the ship they choose for pursuit; the station command structure would be secondary to the needs of our heroes.

I don't see the merit or likelihood of our heroes converging in some other location. After all, that would mean leaving the one where many of them would already have been! Quinteros was their contact man, and would probably have been hovering near the ship (while the SB commander would not), so anybody rushing back to the ship to see what was going on, or anybody evacuating via the gangway, would first stumble on him.

There isn't time for anything much when the ship is about to evacuate. Hence the appropriation of some random console for quick analysis, rather than the use of the station's no doubt extensive dedicated tracking or command facilities.

Maybe instead of air, the Spacedock can simply be heated?
The general problem is, there are supposed to be starships in there. Why place them in a hostile environment? Starships are supposed to be operated in vacuum, for years or decades at an end. They need neither pampering nor shock therapy. And the small craft around them shouldn't be any more or less vulnerable.

(Anyway, if heating were needed but air weren't, the big lamps of the open-scaffolding box docks should be the answer..)

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Old June 3 2014, 12:29 PM   #20
Robert Comsol
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Re: SpaceDock questions

^^ I fail to see why a heated spacedock interior should be a "hostile environment".

Spacecraft operate in a hostile environment (space), where they have to withstand the frying heat on the sunny side and the icy cold on the other (between stars it's mostly cold).

If the spacedock interior were heated, at least you could switch of the internal heaters of the space vessels, but given the lack of molecules inside a vacuum I wonder how you could heat up any vacuum in general.

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Old June 3 2014, 12:41 PM   #21
Mario de Monti
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Re: SpaceDock questions

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If the spacedock interior were heated, at least you could switch of the internal heaters of the space vessels, but given the lack of molecules inside a vacuum I wonder how you could heat up any vacuum in general.
The same way that the sun heats us through the vacuum of space: thermal radiation

Of course you wouldn´t actually be heating up the vacuum, but any object or person inside the spacedock would be heated up.
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Old June 3 2014, 02:26 PM   #22
Timo
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Re: SpaceDock questions

But as said, that doesn't require walls. (And air would certainly mess up the effect.)

Heating wouldn't do starships any good, even if it didn't do much harm, either. Hull temperature for them must be a pennywise concern, unrelated to the welfare of the people and equipment inside; those things deal with much greater thermal loads already, after all.

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Old June 3 2014, 06:20 PM   #23
Nebusj
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Re: SpaceDock questions

Timo wrote: View Post
There isn't time for anything much when the ship is about to evacuate. Hence the appropriation of some random console for quick analysis, rather than the use of the station's no doubt extensive dedicated tracking or command facilities.
Seriously?

I mean, the dedicated tracking or command facilities will be a turbolift ride away. If they have to rush their response, they should just have a shorter turbolift conversation.

(I can see gathering at First Spot With Anything in the two minutes after the evacuation. But if there's been enough time for the adrenaline rush to wear off, they should be at whatever the appropriate information center available is. If there's been time for a bathroom break there's time to get to the post designed for handling emergencies.)
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Old June 3 2014, 07:17 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: SpaceDock questions

Well, any excuse to hide the fact that the mighty starbase only has one room...

It's consistent in any case. Our heroes can use any random console to operate their starship; they could do the same here and save themselves the trip to anywhere else.

More importantly, it is realistic for a rare once. It's not the business of our heroes to sort out this incident. They are just low-ranking castaways now; the starbase no doubt has experts who do tactical vectoring of starship resources for a living, and will at most keep our heroes informed. Sure, Riker might rush off to vent steam at the starbase Head Honcho for no good reason, but the people actually stranded there aren't the sort.

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Old June 3 2014, 11:19 PM   #25
Rick Sternbach
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Re: SpaceDock questions

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I recall that the TNG producers simply decided that Starbase 79 is much bigger than the STIII Spacedock, over Rick Sternbach's (or was it Andrew Probert's?) objections. The doors are the same relative size to the facility, since the footage was from STIII only with the E-D in place of the classic movie ship.
Might have been Andy who called out the problems; I really wasn't involved in that discussion. From an episodic TV show production reality standpoint, I can understand the footage reuse; from a fan standpoint I can also wish they had done something different. But I can always re-jigger the concept of a larger station in my head and be okay with that.

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Old June 4 2014, 12:24 AM   #26
Nob Akimoto
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Re: SpaceDock questions

Sisko himself is not to be trusted much, as he also felt his runabouts were "starships"...
I think Eddie and I went over this pretty recently in a classification discussion, but Sisko never actually referred to runabouts as "starships". (For that matter, "starship" is likely a technical term of art like "ship" used to be - ie referring to certain propulsion systems or capabilities and would be a term a naval officer wouldn't use informally. Just like how subs are never referred to as "ships" but as "boats" by anyone dealing with such matters.)
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Old June 4 2014, 03:43 AM   #27
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Re: SpaceDock questions

Timo wrote: View Post
But we know that workbees and observation pods are "beasts of vacuum"
We don't know that at all. Especially since the "intake manifold" is an oft-mentioned piece of technobabble througout Trek history. It could be as simple as a small bleed vent for sucking in air which is then superheated and shot out through the thrusters, thus saving fuel.

Certainly it would explain why workbees are as comfortable as they are maneuvering around in a starship's cargo bay.

The bees and pods would be disadvantaged by the air resistance.
Only if you want them to go really fast, which in a place like space dock you most certainly do NOT.

An atmosphere in the enclosure allows for some convection, and the heat can be dissipated more safely in a controlled manner.
I'd rather think the radiators of the starship would be choked by the change in medium, and the ships would soon blow up.
Not at all. If anything, the radiators would become a lot more efficient with some airflow moving over them. That may or may not be the entire purpose of those so-called "emergency flush vents: if your engines are superheating to the point of burning out, dump a couple tons of coolant through the grilles to quickly dissipate some of that excess heat.

Besides, we've seen starships operate in a planetary atmosphere for prolonged periods of time with no ill effects, and in the Abramsverse the larger-than-average Enterprise can even operate under water.

Your ship is in port for repairs, that means you can get your engineering crew to go out on the hull and patch those hull breaches without having to get into space suits and perform a potentially dangerous EVA.
...After which there's gas trapped behind hull panels, and as soon as you sail through the air curtain forcefield, your ship goes BANG!
It actually takes quite a bit of work to make a surface airtight against the vacuum of space. If the outer hull plating is designed to contain an atmosphere, this will not be a problem: it can stand up to the pressure anyway. If the outer hull plating is NOT designed to contain an atmosphere, the air will simply leak out into space as soon as the ship leaves.

This, BTW, is the reason why modern-day spacecraft don't burst as soon as they leave the atmosphere. Only the pressure vessels are meant to be airtight, while the rest of the ship outside that envelop controls airflow through bleed valves that deliberately allow controlled pathways for air to flow in and out.

Maybe that's what the "impulse exhaust grille" on the neck of the Connie is really for?
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Old June 4 2014, 03:45 AM   #28
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Re: SpaceDock questions

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I don't think there is an atmosphere inside. This would require a depressurization each time a ship comes or leaves and require each worker (without EVA) to be notified.
I'll again point out the idea that most starships no longer decompress their shuttlebays when their doors are open. Forcefields, man!
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Old June 4 2014, 05:46 AM   #29
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: SpaceDock questions

I'd have to do some math, based on the assumed size of the station, but I'm wondering now (as I did then) just how large it would look from Earth. Then again..I'd have to assume how high up in orbit it is.

Whatever the figure would be, it would be a fun target for backyard telescopes!
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Old June 4 2014, 09:40 AM   #30
Robert Comsol
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Re: SpaceDock questions

Rick Sternbach wrote: View Post
Might have been Andy who called out the problems; I really wasn't involved in that discussion.
I visited your Star Trek art Department back in February 1988 and one of the first things Andrew confronted me with was a size comparison sketch with a stern view of the Enterprise-D in front of Earth Spacedock to illustrate that she couldn't possibly fit through these doors.

In November 1987 Andrew had sketched an outside docking proposal. Curiously, looking at it again, now, I get the impression that spacedock / starbase in his November sketch must be a lot bigger than Earth Spacedock...

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I'll again point out the idea that most starships no longer decompress their shuttlebays when their doors are open. Forcefields, man!
Frankly, I’d like “my” Star Trek to remain un-affected by Star Wars tropes (and vice versa). Besides, then what’s the point of mechanical doors in the first place – to trap ships inside in case of a power less as visualized in ST IV:TVH?

Then, they could have just used forcefields all day long and just kept mechanical doors as a “blast shield” option. In case of a power loss, the ships inside would still be able to leave...

Bob
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