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Old June 3 2014, 08:48 PM   #31
Nightdiamond
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Frodo Lives wrote: View Post
Maybe the Klingon Defence Force could be re-purposed as the Federation Defence Force, creating a complimentary service to Starfleet, while still allowing the warrior class to exercise their martial prowess when the need arises?
One problem I see with that is that Klingon individual houses own and operate their own militaries. That might mean a house relinquishing their personal armies to the Federation and following its rules --I just don't see them doing that.

I think the Klingon government would have to undergo a serious fundamental change in order for things like this to happen.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
That sounds a lot like the Republic (Star Wars). And we know how that turned out.

it's a wonder the Federation didn't end up like the Republic.
Let's see, a powerful democratic institution for a thousand years, then a few decades of various civil wars, followed by (in the EU) a return to democracy.
Ahh, but look what it turned into--it went from being a republic to an opressive empire, all because of a manipulated senate being tricked into voting a dictator into office.

It can be argued that a somewhat similar situation was seen in "Homefront" DS9. It showed some interesting symptoms.
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Old June 3 2014, 09:03 PM   #32
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Also bear in mind the only Klingons we tend to ever seen are the military and the nobility.

Other than Worf who ends up in the nobility, we only see a handful of Klingons who don't fall into those categories. We see the woman in Sins Of The Father, the scientist in Suspicions, the religious Klingons from Voyager, the lawyer from Rules of Engagement, B'elana's mother, the children in Birthright, and that's pretty much it. We don't get a strong sense from them that the values of the nobility reflect in the proletariat, and the nobility tend to only give the external appearance of honor when most of them are really just devious schemers fighting to increase the influence of their own house. For all we know the common Klingon is tired of war.
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Old June 3 2014, 10:11 PM   #33
Frodo Lives
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Frodo Lives wrote: View Post
Maybe the Klingon Defence Force could be re-purposed as the Federation Defence Force, creating a complimentary service to Starfleet, while still allowing the warrior class to exercise their martial prowess when the need arises?
One problem I see with that is that Klingon individual houses own and operate their own militaries. That might mean a house relinquishing their personal armies to the Federation and following its rules --I just don't see them doing that.

I think the Klingon government would have to undergo a serious fundamental change in order for things like this to happen.
Which is what I alluded to earlier in my post, that they have undergone fundamental changes in the past and are certainly capable of doing so again.

Obviously I'm not talking about the empire flipping a switch and suddenly becoming humongous, but rather a decades long process of reforming the empire into a more balanced, central power, possibly using the other Klingon castes to fill out the place of stubborn warriors who refuse to change. It's possible is all I'm saying.
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Old June 4 2014, 02:30 AM   #34
Sci
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
That sounds a lot like the Republic (Star Wars). And we know how that turned out.

it's a wonder the Federation didn't end up like the Republic.
Let's see, a powerful democratic institution for a thousand years, then a few decades of various civil wars, followed by (in the EU) a return to democracy.
I don't know. I think there's something to be said for the argument that, just like the Galactic Empire was to the Order of the Sith, the Galactic Republic was nothing more than a mechanism to legitimize and perpetuate the Jedi Order's dominance over Galactic civilization. It was never a genuine democracy, because real power was monopolized by the Jedi.

In this view, the actual undemocratic nature of the state remains relatively unchanged, and the Clone Wars and the rise of the Empire was nothing more than the process by which one state church displaced the other by use of plutocratic puppets.
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Old June 4 2014, 04:56 AM   #35
han solo
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

no blacks in the fedration, all the kilgons and other guys are all black the federation and there jim crow bullshit
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Old June 4 2014, 08:11 PM   #36
T'Girl
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Doctor M'Benga,
Commodore Stone,
bunch of admirals,
that whiny guy on Galilieo Seven,
Sisko Senior (and Junior),
Lt. Masters,
Miss Uhura,
bunch of Vulcans,
that engineer standing next to Scotty in TMP ...

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Old June 5 2014, 04:41 PM   #37
Misfit Toy
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

han solo wrote: View Post
no blacks in the fedration, all the kilgons and other guys are all black the federation and there jim crow bullshit
Just a note to anyone else thinking of replying to this...

Don't bother. He's already gone.
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Old June 5 2014, 10:59 PM   #38
Nightdiamond
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

^ Was doing a count down for it to happen lol


In order to join the Federation, the Klingons will have to give up these cultural/political practices:

Barring women from serving on the High Council
Barring women from leading their own Houses
Accepting new chancellors who won in a duel
Killing military subordinates for only offering suggestions
The Right of Vengeance
Barring commoners from becoming officers
Crushing any states that want independence
House rule over general populations


I think this is just a handful of requirements--it may be much more. The Klingons would be asked to give up what they think sums up their actual culture--can they really do that?



Sci wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
That sounds a lot like the Republic (Star Wars). And we know how that turned out.

it's a wonder the Federation didn't end up like the Republic.
Let's see, a powerful democratic institution for a thousand years, then a few decades of various civil wars, followed by (in the EU) a return to democracy.
I don't know. I think there's something to be said for the argument that, just like the Galactic Empire was to the Order of the Sith, the Galactic Republic was nothing more than a mechanism to legitimize and perpetuate the Jedi Order's dominance over Galactic civilization. It was never a genuine democracy, because real power was monopolized by the Jedi.
Their form of democracy always confused me. The senators were making important on the spot decisions without consulting their member worlds.

They actually gave a senate seat to a foreign corporation.

The Jedi was the defacto police force/military that recruited and elected
their own members.

The civil war and turning into an empire the way it did, even briefly, represented a humongous failure.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; June 6 2014 at 02:02 AM.
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Old June 5 2014, 11:10 PM   #39
Vandervecken
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

The Klingon Empire doesn't seem to be structured a lot differently from the Mafia. A bunch of families--specifically families--killing each other for power.
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Old June 5 2014, 11:12 PM   #40
Vandervecken
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Doctor M'Benga,
Commodore Stone,
bunch of admirals,
that whiny guy on Galilieo Seven,
Sisko Senior (and Junior),
Lt. Masters,
Miss Uhura,
bunch of Vulcans,
that engineer standing next to Scotty in TMP ...

Captain Donald Varley--one of the better early performances in TNG, and most of it by Captain's log.
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Old June 9 2014, 12:02 AM   #41
T'Girl
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Their form of democracy always confused me. The senators were making important on the spot decisions without consulting their member worlds.
Long distance communications in the Republic/Empire often seem "fuzzy." Possible in the past it was worse, requiring representatives to have autonomous decision making authority. As communications somewhat improved they simply maintained the practice.

The Jedi was the defacto police force/military that recruited and elected their own members.
Being a Jedi required possessing a natural ability, they couldn't be recruited from the general population. Rising to the Jedi council could have been (at lest partially) dependant on how powerful you were with the force, a determination a "outsider" couldn't make.

The civil war and turning into an empire the way it did, even briefly, represented a humongous failure.
In terms of percentages, they spent less of their known history in civil war than America, Britain and quite a few other nations.

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Old June 11 2014, 02:38 AM   #42
Nightdiamond
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Long distance communications in the Republic/Empire often seem "fuzzy." Possible in the past it was worse, requiring representatives to have autonomous decision making authority. As communications somewhat improved they simply maintained the practice.
This was an epic fail. They ended up giving an important vote to a simpleton who was actually a senator. And that vote was the beginning of the end. They gave the senators too much power who gave their chancellor too much power.

In terms of percentages, they spent less of their known history in civil war than America, Britain and quite a few other nations.
But going from democracy to an evil, imperial dictatorship is the trump card. The civil war did only last for a few years, but it resulted in something worse than a civil war.

One thing I'll give credit to the Federation for is that they're so self aware of their freedom that they would immediately catch on and try to stop anything like that from happening.

But that's right now with 150 members. What happens when or if there are too many star systems who aren't as concerned when something affects another member that's far far away?

That's what happened with the Republic.

One member was invaded and basically nothing was done about it because the senate was too bloated and corrupt to agree to immediate action.

The same thing might could-- possible-- maybe-- happen to the Federation if it expanded too far and became overloaded with members and alien senators that feel too distant from each other to feel like a real community.

Some of those feelings came up in the Maquis situation.
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Old June 13 2014, 11:24 PM   #43
T'Girl
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Or Tasha's homeworld. It's exact status is unknown, Federation member, Federation colony, Earth colony, completely independent colony. But on the surface it doesn't sound like outside help came flowing in when they developed trouble.

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