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Old May 27 2014, 10:12 PM   #46
Armored Saint
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Re: Writing Women

Tutututut. Picard was the Indiana Jones. Destroying the artifact was what Indie would have done. Vash was closer to Elsa (without the affiliation to a government or any other organization.)

I think Seven of Nine is a typical product of the late 90's and early 2000's. I mean, La Femme Nikita (with Peta Wilson), Tomb Raider, Buffy, Xena, etc It's not Brannong Braga who created the first strong female character overly sexed up. So yeah, Star Trek had never been in autarky from what else was done on screen.

And I hardly seen the similarity between Kirk and Lwaxana. Of course, there's a couple of episodes where Kirk uses seduction as a kind of weapon, but it's not the same deal than a main plot based on Lwaxana's cougarism.
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Old May 28 2014, 12:32 AM   #47
Nightdiamond
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Re: Writing Women

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
I don't understand the point of this thread. Weren't there lots of times when MALE characters were whiny, irritating, impatient, overbearing, ridiculously emotional, etc?

Why is it when FEMALE characters do all of those things, they are suddenly "bitchy"?
There is a double standard, but in "The Loss", Diana Troi was bitchy rude or snarky to everyone. Picard, Crusher, Riker, Geordi .

Perhaps she she had a reason to be angry-- but maybe her behavior was neither right or wrong---just bitchy.

Metryq wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
They fair better than TOS's version-- All the women wear skimpy skirts
THESE ARE THE VOYAGES: SEASON ONE attributes the mini-skirts to Grace Lee Whitney. Prior to that—including the second pilot—the women wore pants.
Pilot no. 1 gets a lot of credit for being original and forward thinking.


But the real problem begins with the writing after that -- it was borderline cringe worthy at times. It almost confirms the urban rumors about the network execs and how they really wanted women to be portrayed.

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
I think Seven of Nine is a typical product of the late 90's and early 2000's. I mean, La Femme Nikita (with Peta Wilson), Tomb Raider, Buffy, Xena, etc
A very hot female that wore a skin tight uniform while all the other women wore floppy uniforms....knew everything about physics....and could fight the Rock with all her vast knowledge of martial arts .

Nope, I don't see it .

This is why I think Tasha Yar gets a bad rap. She pulled off being a female that could fight and lead security teams still do feminine things....like crying when she got frustrated.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; May 28 2014 at 03:06 AM.
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Old May 28 2014, 03:05 AM   #48
The Wormhole
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Re: Writing Women

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
It's not Brannong Braga who created the first strong female character overly sexed up.
It's not even Brannon Braga who created Seven of Nine. She was created by Rick Berman and Jeri Taylor who were also responsible for casting Jeri Ryan.

True, Braga did write the episode where Seven was introduced, but since at this point in the show he was just one of the writing staff, creating a new main character wouldn't have been his job.
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Old May 30 2014, 07:11 AM   #49
Destructor
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Re: Writing Women

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
This is why I think Tasha Yar gets a bad rap. She pulled off being a female that could fight and lead security teams still do feminine things....like crying when she got frustrated.
I agree that Tasha totally got a bad rap. *So* many of the problems with TNG would have been solved if she'd stayed on the cast.

Just as a sidebar, I'd like to think that TNG was coming from the perspective that tears of frustration weren't innately feminine.
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Old June 1 2014, 06:53 PM   #50
WillsBabe
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Re: Writing Women

Destructor wrote: View Post
I agree that Tasha totally got a bad rap. *So* many of the problems with TNG would have been solved if she'd stayed on the cast.
This is interesting. What are the issues and how would they have been solved?
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Old June 1 2014, 08:49 PM   #51
Nightdiamond
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Re: Writing Women

Destructor wrote: View Post
Just as a sidebar, I'd like to think that TNG was coming from the perspective that tears of frustration weren't innately feminine.
This is ironic, but has anyone noticed Tasha is pretty muchthe only main character female that cried when she got frustrated?

All the others--Dax, Kira, Uhura, Crusher, B'elanna, Janeway, never do it as far I know (I think Kira might have) .

Tasha had a well rounded character, but a lot of fans can't stand her.
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Old June 2 2014, 01:53 PM   #52
Forbin
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Re: Writing Women

Destructor wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
This is why I think Tasha Yar gets a bad rap. She pulled off being a female that could fight and lead security teams still do feminine things....like crying when she got frustrated.
I agree that Tasha totally got a bad rap. *So* many of the problems with TNG would have been solved if she'd stayed on the cast.

Just as a sidebar, I'd like to think that TNG was coming from the perspective that tears of frustration weren't innately feminine.
I think my opinion of Tasha took a permanent nosedive in Heart of Glory when, instead of DOING anything about the Klingons loose on the ship, she just sort of followed them around tapping her commbadge to report what they were doing to Picard. She was next to useless.
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Old June 2 2014, 06:47 PM   #53
The Wormhole
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Re: Writing Women

Forbin wrote: View Post
Destructor wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
This is why I think Tasha Yar gets a bad rap. She pulled off being a female that could fight and lead security teams still do feminine things....like crying when she got frustrated.
I agree that Tasha totally got a bad rap. *So* many of the problems with TNG would have been solved if she'd stayed on the cast.

Just as a sidebar, I'd like to think that TNG was coming from the perspective that tears of frustration weren't innately feminine.
I think my opinion of Tasha took a permanent nosedive in Heart of Glory when, instead of DOING anything about the Klingons loose on the ship, she just sort of followed them around tapping her commbadge to report what they were doing to Picard. She was next to useless.
I always had a problem with the security guard assigned to the brig who, while the Klingons are breaking out stands aside to report the break out rather than try to prevent it.
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Old June 4 2014, 07:31 PM   #54
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Re: Writing Women

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
Destructor wrote: View Post

I agree that Tasha totally got a bad rap. *So* many of the problems with TNG would have been solved if she'd stayed on the cast.

Just as a sidebar, I'd like to think that TNG was coming from the perspective that tears of frustration weren't innately feminine.
I think my opinion of Tasha took a permanent nosedive in Heart of Glory when, instead of DOING anything about the Klingons loose on the ship, she just sort of followed them around tapping her commbadge to report what they were doing to Picard. She was next to useless.
I always had a problem with the security guard assigned to the brig who, while the Klingons are breaking out stands aside to report the break out rather than try to prevent it.
You can't have conflict on TNG!
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Old June 4 2014, 08:28 PM   #55
JarodRussell
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Re: Writing Women

foxhot wrote: View Post
You can't have conflict on TNG!
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Old June 5 2014, 01:34 AM   #56
Xhiandra
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Re: Writing Women

One could argue all characters individually, but that's rather long and partly subjective. I think a significant factor is numbers. Female characters were underrepresented in main roles in all series. Statistically, the number of well-written and well-received female characters was bound to be lower when they were less numerous and frequently confined to lesser roles. ToS gets "executive meddling" as an excuse, but I'm not sure the other series can claim the same excuse.
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Old June 5 2014, 02:32 AM   #57
Nightdiamond
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Re: Writing Women

Forbin wrote: View Post
Destructor wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
This is why I think Tasha Yar gets a bad rap. She pulled off being a female that could fight and lead security teams still do feminine things....like crying when she got frustrated.
I agree that Tasha totally got a bad rap. *So* many of the problems with TNG would have been solved if she'd stayed on the cast.

Just as a sidebar, I'd like to think that TNG was coming from the perspective that tears of frustration weren't innately feminine.
I think my opinion of Tasha took a permanent nosedive in Heart of Glory when, instead of DOING anything about the Klingons loose on the ship, she just sort of followed them around tapping her commbadge to report what they were doing to Picard. She was next to useless.
I don't know, I always thought she handled the situation like a professional. There was a scene in that episode where she's at her terminal and reports on where the Klingons are.

Picard says send a security team, and she asks if she should stay at her tactical post, or lead the team personally.

That's the stuff I like, Tasha was all security, professional and on her job.

it would have been interesting if she stayed on the show, because she was probably the 3rd officer on the ship and would have been on the fore front a lot.

The fact that she sometimes questioned the femininity of her job made it all the more interesting--she didn't avoid the subject as if it were considered 'politically incorrect' .

Last edited by Nightdiamond; June 5 2014 at 05:43 AM.
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Old June 5 2014, 06:34 AM   #58
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Writing Women

Wasn't it Jeri Taylor's decision to put 7 of 9 in a catsuit?
Jeri Taylor was the one who advocated Deanna be placed in a uniform.
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Old June 5 2014, 02:41 PM   #59
The Wormhole
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Re: Writing Women

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Jeri Taylor was the one who advocated Deanna be placed in a uniform.
I thought Deanna Troi in a uniform was something that happened accidently? Supposedly, so the story goes as I remember it, her uniform was just supposed to be a one-time only thing in the Chain of Command story to show Captain Jellico's stricter command style. But then everyone thought Marina Sirtis looked better in uniform than she did in those bodysuits, and therefore she kept wearing a uniform on a regular basis.
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Old June 5 2014, 04:36 PM   #60
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Writing Women

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
I thought Deanna Troi in a uniform was something that happened accidently? Supposedly, so the story goes as I remember it, her uniform was just supposed to be a one-time only thing in the Chain of Command story to show Captain Jellico's stricter command style. But then everyone thought Marina Sirtis looked better in uniform than she did in those bodysuits, and therefore she kept wearing a uniform on a regular basis.
IMHO all female characters look great in standard Starfleet uniforms: Troi, Kira, Seven, T'Pol (not her altered S3 catsuits). It also makes you take them more seriously as characters, whilst still showing them to be women in great shape.

This should be the norm, unless of course the PTB decide to put a fit, hot man in a Seven-esque catsuit. Until then, put them all in uniform, please.
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