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Old May 31 2014, 02:55 PM   #31
Christopher
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

YARN wrote: View Post
Except the TOS Enterprise is described on screen as having impulse engines, right?
How is that relevant? This thread is about reinventing it from scratch, pretending that TOS never existed.


Albertese wrote: View Post
^^^
In "The Paradise Syndrome"[TOS] they use a deflector beam to attempt a course change on the incoming asteroid. While we don't see where this beam comes from on the ship, backstage material was already referring to the big copper dish on the front of the Engineering Hull as the "Main sensor/deflector" so I think it's fair to suggest that the idea goes that far back.
Yes, it certainly does. The Making of Star Trek makes that very clear. Not only does it specifically describe the dish as "a parabolic sensor antenna and asteroid-deflector" (p. 191), but it reprints Roddenberry's own 1964 development notes reflecting his discussions with scientists and engineers. From p. 86:
Some kind of "meteoroid shield" or "meteoroid force field deflector" will be necessary in true spaceships. If not a force field, it may be a magnetic field which deflects cosmic dust or small meteoroids via an opposite charge. Or it might consist of a probing Laser beam which deflects and/or destroys dust and small particles from the path of the ship.
So the navigational deflector idea was part of the design process of the ship from the beginning, and reflected ideas that space scientists had already worked out years before. It's simply a fact that space contains debris that would be hazardous at high velocities, so it would be impossible for a starship to function without some kind of deflection system.
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Old May 31 2014, 04:22 PM   #32
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Forgot to mention in my post, the Meteorite Beam was from The Cage.
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Old June 2 2014, 03:32 AM   #33
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Christopher wrote: View Post
YARN wrote: View Post
Except the TOS Enterprise is described on screen as having impulse engines, right?
How is that relevant? This thread is about reinventing it from scratch, pretending that TOS never existed.
Is it? Vektor's idea, which was well-received was that we might consider TOS to be a radio-play and that we would design the ship only from the dialogue.

If, however, you wish to pretend that TOS never existed, then it clearly does not matter how you design the ship at all. If so, it's not really a redesign Star Trek challenge but, design a random space ship challenge.
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Old June 2 2014, 04:00 AM   #34
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Mage wrote: View Post
Forgot to mention in my post, the Meteorite Beam was from The Cage.
Oh, hey, I never noticed that. They established its existence in the very first scene of the pilot! "It's coming at the speed of light, collision course. The meteorite beam has not deflected it, Captain." Wow, that's putting your research on the screen.

Well, except they got the terminology wrong. A meteorite is a surviving piece of an asteroid that's fallen to Earth. A small piece of rock in space (up to a meter in diameter) is a meteoroid. (Ironically, anything small enough to be called a meteoroid rather than an asteroid would burn up completely in the atmosphere, so meteoroids never become meteorites; only asteroids do.)
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Old June 2 2014, 06:09 AM   #35
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

This thread reminds me of something my late sister once said about (I think it was) Barlow's Guide to Extraterrestrials. Her impossible (yet strangely practical) thought was that it would have been better if the artist had never seen an Earth animal before. Her comments about how the artist would borrow a piece of a gorilla here, a piece of zebra there was unimaginative. I can't really argue with that...even though it's impossible to achieve!
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Old June 2 2014, 07:15 AM   #36
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
This thread reminds me of something my late sister once said about (I think it was) Barlow's Guide to Extraterrestrials. Her impossible (yet strangely practical) thought was that it would have been better if the artist had never seen an Earth animal before. Her comments about how the artist would borrow a piece of a gorilla here, a piece of zebra there was unimaginative. I can't really argue with that...even though it's impossible to achieve!
Well, all the imagination is really, is combining elements already known to the imaginer (e.g., Hume's golden mountain).

The laziest sort of imaginings are simple combinations for which Greek mythology was famous (a winged horse, a man's torso jutting out of the neck of a horse, a three headed dog).

The best imaginings, I thin,k play with finer elements (e.g., why should everything have bilateral symmetry?) in more complicated combinations, but the game is the same.
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Old June 2 2014, 01:21 PM   #37
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

YARN wrote: View Post
If, however, you wish to pretend that TOS never existed, then it clearly does not matter how you design the ship at all. If so, it's not really a redesign Star Trek challenge but, design a random space ship challenge.
This is, of course, the crux of the issue. Star Trek influenced SF that followed it so without Trek then SF (at least in the visual sense) might have evolved differently. What other influences could have been prominent without Star Trek? And would Star Wars even have happened as well?

Yes, it's a thought exercise, but it does illustrate that if you make one change it has rippling after effects.

The look of TOS didn't come out of nowhere. MJ reinterpreted what he knew and had seen and fashioned the TOS Enterprise and the rest. Any creator does the same. Without MJ's influence you're assuming that everything else remains and try to draw influence from that. But the Catch 22 now is if any elements resembling MJ's designs appear in your work how can you convince others of not being influenced by him?

So, as YARN says, you're basically trying to design something (everything) new from scratch.
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Old June 2 2014, 02:06 PM   #38
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
This thread reminds me of something my late sister once said about (I think it was) Barlow's Guide to Extraterrestrials. Her impossible (yet strangely practical) thought was that it would have been better if the artist had never seen an Earth animal before. Her comments about how the artist would borrow a piece of a gorilla here, a piece of zebra there was unimaginative. I can't really argue with that...even though it's impossible to achieve!
I see her point, but I think Barlowe did better than a lot of artists at visualizing really alien life. In particular, most other artists' renditions of the Overlords from Childhood's End are basically exactly like the devil imagery they're supposed to have influenced, but Barlowe's version looks more like an alien species that just has some broad similarities to the devil imagery.

And much of Barlowe's work later in his career has been even better at conveying true alienness -- notably his book Expedition.

But Barlowe was a major influence on my SF, I think. When I started out imagining a science fiction universe of my own, I followed the Trek precedent of using humanoid aliens, but as I learned more about biology and evolution, I realized how unlikely that was. And I think Barlowe's Guide inspired me to get a lot more experimental about my alien designs. Although most of mine probably do have more Earth influence than they ideally should.



Warped9 wrote: View Post
The look of TOS didn't come out of nowhere. MJ reinterpreted what he knew and had seen and fashioned the TOS Enterprise and the rest. Any creator does the same. Without MJ's influence you're assuming that everything else remains and try to draw influence from that. But the Catch 22 now is if any elements resembling MJ's designs appear in your work how can you convince others of not being influenced by him?
Well, of course we can't actually respond to the challenge of this thread without being aware of the original design. Even if we consciously avoid its elements, that's still a response to it. But that doesn't mean we're stuck with simply copying it. We can be aware of it but still choose to do things differently, to recognize that the ideas that shaped it in 1964 aren't necessarily still valid today. Today we know that a realistic warp engine would more likely be a cylindrical collar surrounding the ship than a pair of long tubes. Today we know that a warp drive could work just fine as a sublight gravity drive, so we don't have to keep the conceit of "impulse engines." And so forth.

What Jefferies did was to try to design a ship that was both aesthetic and plausible given the best theoretical knowledge of his day. Something that looked like it was made to operate in weightless space, something that looked like it had power without having rocket exhaust, something that wasn't just a copy of the standard fictional spaceship designs that preceded it. I think the challenge here is to do the same from scratch -- to emulate the spirit of Jefferies's work, the goals and thinking that shaped it, rather than just copying the specific lines and contours that resulted.

Of course, that last point shows just how much influence Jefferies did have. Before ST, pretty much every film/TV spaceship, at least in the US, was either a rocketship/cigar shape or a flying saucer. (The War of the Worlds Martian War Machines don't count because they were hovercraft, not spacecraft.) Now, the Enterprise incorporates both the saucer shape and the cigar shape, but it and the ships that followed it in TOS brought a variety to cinematic spacecraft that they hadn't really had before.
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Old June 2 2014, 02:21 PM   #39
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Hey guys,

Didn't have any time to check the thread this weekend... thanks for all the responses.

I've got some ideas modeled, and hopefully I can show everyone what I've been thinking.

So far, I have a saucer section, some engine nacelles, and an engineering hull. The engineering hull won't be inhabited... it's basically fuel storage tanks and the M/AM reactors.

The saucer is going to made up of several modules, linked together. I'm going to have a radiation shield on the bottom of that, shielding the saucer modules from the reactor.

It'll make sense I hope, when you guys see it.

-Ricky
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Old June 2 2014, 09:57 PM   #40
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Alright guys, I have some mock ups. I'd like to use this as a starting point, for you guys to add ideas to, tweak, and flesh out.



















The only things I am really sold on, are the engines basic shape, the segmented saucer, and having the m/am engines below like that... pretty much everything else can change, though.

Talk to you guys later...

-Ricky
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Old June 2 2014, 10:15 PM   #41
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

I keep thinking that the ship should have a giant deflector dish that is taller and wider than the whole ship, which would sit behind it, and that contours to the inner edge of the warp field. Almost like a Warshawski sail from the Honor Harrington series of novels, but with an actual material to it. I mean, if you had never seen a force shield and were told that the deflector shielded the ship, what would you think of? But then again, maybe not.
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
This thread reminds me of something my late sister once said about (I think it was) Barlow's Guide to Extraterrestrials. Her impossible (yet strangely practical) thought was that it would have been better if the artist had never seen an Earth animal before. Her comments about how the artist would borrow a piece of a gorilla here, a piece of zebra there was unimaginative. I can't really argue with that...even though it's impossible to achieve!
Not sure it's impossible, or at least won't soon be possible. How about a blind artist? Or even better (maybe, not sure), a previously blind artist who is given a more advanced version of those implant chips like Stevie Wonder has, in the not too distant future, and is then asked to draw them without being shown any animals?
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Old June 2 2014, 10:15 PM   #42
Avon
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

ooh i've got a few drawings that fit the idea of this thread somewhere but i can't remember where they are. will do some searching.
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Old June 2 2014, 11:45 PM   #43
saddestmoon
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Awesome work Madman1701A! Great idea, and I can't wait to see this goes!

Thanks for sharing!
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Old June 2 2014, 11:58 PM   #44
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

I've been looking at the ship you've drawn out, and should the nacelles be "sideways" so as to line up the rings of the Alcubierre drives with the direction the ship will generally travel in? (Also, am I correct to get the impression that turning at warp would be possible by microfluctuating the power to the drives on one side or the other?)
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Old June 3 2014, 12:36 AM   #45
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

MadMan1701A wrote: View Post
Alright guys, I have some mock ups. I'd like to use this as a starting point, for you guys to add ideas to, tweak, and flesh out.



















The only things I am really sold on, are the engines basic shape, the segmented saucer, and having the m/am engines below like that... pretty much everything else can change, though.

Talk to you guys later...

-Ricky
Make the nacelles more like the secondary hull ending in antenna farms

You know--one of those alien video games whose title I have forgotten, where they made organisms that look like AT-ATs walking around--had something similar.

To me USS Vengeance is a good place to start.

Nacelle supports more gull wing like, a bigger saucer, lower down with high nacellse for a souped up look.

uber detail

My perfect fan boy wish list--a refit era ship with those modifications, but with Super star destroyer complexity
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