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Old May 23 2014, 08:00 AM   #16
Soran77
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

This is almost done, I had a lot of fun putting my own take on this design!

Last edited by Soran77; May 23 2014 at 04:46 PM.
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Old May 23 2014, 01:10 PM   #17
Warped9
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

^^ All you're really doing is trying to take my concept into a more conventional (already familiar) direction. It's also not truly in the the spirit of MadMan's OP about exploring something different.

The basic idea of this thread's initial premise isn't easy, though. It's asking to consider possible design ideas as if TOS and the rest of Trek had never existed. IF that had been the case someone could still conceivably have come up with something similar to MJ's work, but now that's tainted because you can't ignore that TOS already exists. What it comes down to is considering any idea other than something resembling MJ's concept.

All sorts of cool designs can be conceived, but a bigger question is if any of them could be considered a hero ship and become widely recognizable and perhaps even iconic. MJ's design was breakout for its time and it also benefited from TOS catching on with generations of viewers. To some extent it has achieved a sort of cache because of Star Trek's success it might otherwise not have if TOS had truly failed and faded into barely remembered history.

There is a design for a spaceship in an early '60's era film called First Spaceship On Venus. The ship is called the Cosmostrator. There are a lot of interesting ideas in this film and the design is a beautiful variation on the classic rocketship concept. I'm sure it has influenced later SF artists notably Bob Eggleton and Vincent Di Fate and likely others for numerous illustrations on SF book covers over the years. But otherwise it is a largely forgotten design because the film never achieved wide success and recognition. It's just one of many films lost to history outside the memory of a few.

Would any of the designs in Star Wars be really remembered (outside of a few) if SW had bombed and been forgotten? Outside of designers and artists good design is rarely recognized without broader success to achieve wide recognition.
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Old May 23 2014, 02:10 PM   #18
MadMan1701A
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Hey guys.

Some good thoughts and ideas. I've been brainstorming all night too, thinking of things.

I think I want to keep a vaguely similar layout to the TOS Enterprise; Engines separated from the ship, engine hull below, and some kind of dome / disc structure.

Now, having said that, I think all the details will be different. The engineering hull is going to be just 2 M/AM engines, and a fuel storage area. All habitable space is going to be in the primary hull.

No bridge on the top... but I would like it visible somewhere, with windows.

I'm thinking 23rd century, but with slightly more realistic detailing. I'm really looking close at the Prometheus, and the Venture Star from Avatar for details.

Artificial gravity is present, so no spinning modules to simulate gravity is necessary.

I've been drawing my engines, and I think I have a layout that is going to work pretty well. Maybe, anyway.

-Ricky
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Old May 23 2014, 02:43 PM   #19
Albertese
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

sojourner wrote: View Post
OK, here's a really rough sketch using some primitive forms of the direction I've been thinking. Probably over influenced from watching Hunt for Red October yesterday.

I'd actually love to see more of this one...

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Old May 23 2014, 02:46 PM   #20
Warped9
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Good, MadMan. Now you're laying out parameters and general ideas as a starting point. From that you can start to experiment and build.

Question: do you try out out different ideas or have a pretty finalized idea and proceed from there? I know I can have basic ideas and then I do lots of freehand sketching to try out variations and different details as I work toward something more concrete.
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Old May 23 2014, 03:34 PM   #21
MadMan1701A
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

I end up sketching several type of things out, then try to build it in 3D. Usually, it ends up looking very different in 3D than it did in my sketch, so I change it again.

I have some very messy sketches of what the layout is going to look like... I'm going to clean those up and maybe post them later.

Another thing... the ship is going to be pretty big.

-Ricky
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Old May 23 2014, 04:55 PM   #22
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

^^ Initially I envisioned my 29th century Enterprise being up to about 1500 ft. long, but after all was said and done it came out to 1068 ft. That doesn't seem like much of a big difference over 947 ft. except that the design allows for a lot more interior space than the TOS E configuration.
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Old May 23 2014, 05:41 PM   #23
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

How about this: What if TOS had never existed as a television program but rather as a '60s radio drama, and somebody just now in 2014 had the idea to recreate it in a visual format? In other words, the premise, the time period, the technology and the overall narrative remain completely unchanged, but what everything looks like is open to interpretation.

The only guidelines we have to work with from TOS are bits of dialogue like "up to the bridge," "down to engineering," "jettison nacelles, if necessary," "he's heading for the hangar deck," etc. In later Trek series, there were more specific references to the "saucer section" or the "engineering hull," the "deflector dish," "warp coils," "matter/anti-matter intermix chamber" and so forth, which could be accounted for or not depending on your inclinations.

So, there would be a wealth of design influences that harken back to Star Trek as we know it but none of them would be of a visual nature.

Just a thought.
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Old May 23 2014, 07:09 PM   #24
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Vektor wrote: View Post
How about this: What if TOS had never existed as a television program but rather as a '60s radio drama, and somebody just now in 2014 had the idea to recreate it in a visual format? In other words, the premise, the time period, the technology and the overall narrative remain completely unchanged, but what everything looks like is open to interpretation.

The only guidelines we have to work with from TOS are bits of dialogue like "up to the bridge," "down to engineering," "jettison nacelles, if necessary," "he's heading for the hangar deck," etc. In later Trek series, there were more specific references to the "saucer section" or the "engineering hull," the "deflector dish," "warp coils," "matter/anti-matter intermix chamber" and so forth, which could be accounted for or not depending on your inclinations.

So, there would be a wealth of design influences that harken back to Star Trek as we know it but none of them would be of a visual nature.

Just a thought.
So do a police sketch of the Enterprise based on the dialogue's description of it?
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Old May 23 2014, 07:44 PM   #25
MadMan1701A
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Vektor wrote: View Post
How about this: What if TOS had never existed as a television program but rather as a '60s radio drama, and somebody just now in 2014 had the idea to recreate it in a visual format? In other words, the premise, the time period, the technology and the overall narrative remain completely unchanged, but what everything looks like is open to interpretation.

The only guidelines we have to work with from TOS are bits of dialogue like "up to the bridge," "down to engineering," "jettison nacelles, if necessary," "he's heading for the hangar deck," etc. In later Trek series, there were more specific references to the "saucer section" or the "engineering hull," the "deflector dish," "warp coils," "matter/anti-matter intermix chamber" and so forth, which could be accounted for or not depending on your inclinations.

So, there would be a wealth of design influences that harken back to Star Trek as we know it but none of them would be of a visual nature.

Just a thought.
I like that a lot... that would make allowances for keeping the same basic shape, but with a totally different look.

Thanks!

-Ricky
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Old May 30 2014, 08:43 PM   #26
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

MadMan1701A wrote: View Post
Yeah, those are cool, for sure.

JES, you said a word earlier that I liked. You mentioned Triangular when you were talking about the command hull, and I like that! I'm thinking of making that a theme along the whole ship.

I'm also thinking Matter / Antimatter will be the main power source... I don't think much else would be enough. I'm also thinking that the reactors should power both the FTL and sublight engines. Speaking of, should they be ion engines?

-Ricky
If you think I should, maybe I should make some sketches? And yeah, the triangular hull did seem logical. It's streamlined, and the U.S. Air Force supposedly has an above top secret triangular air/spacecraft known as the TR3B.

I was thinking of something akin to VASMIR: using plasma as propulsion. Seems like the closest thing to Impulse Drive that we can think of anyways.

Ion Drives aren't don't accelerate very fast, so there wouldn't be a whole lot of mobility out of FTL.

And on the note of mobility, it is thought that the Alcubierre Warp Drive wouldn't allow maneuvers such as the Picard Maneuver, due to the crew not be able to control the ship once the Warp Bubble is in effect. It is theorized that the crew couldn't have the ship change direction or stop, until it arrives at the predetermined coordinates, at least if I understand what I read.

Entire strategies in combat could evolve around these limitations.
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Old May 31 2014, 12:38 AM   #27
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

If a non-artist may offer a thought:

If you have warp drive, you don't really need a separate impulse drive. An Alcubierre warp drive functions just fine at sublight speeds, giving you a reactionless gravity drive that can let you accelerate to any sublight velocity with no time dilation. In fact, it would be easier to make it work as a sublight drive than as an FTL drive, because you wouldn't have the control problems or Hawking radiation runaway to worry about.

Not to mention that if you have a warp drive, you don't need a navigational deflector either, because any interstellar debris in your path would just get caught in the front of the warp like bugs in a car grille. Except you'd have to be careful not to be pointing at anyone you like when you come out of warp, since the accumulated particles would then shoot forward in a high-energy burst. On the other hand, that would make one heck of a surprise-attack weapon.

The one reason you'd have for a separate propulsion system is that an Alcubierre warp sends you in whatever direction you're going when you activate it. So the way to set out on a certain course would be to accelerate yourself a little in the desired direction using a conventional drive, and then activate the warp to get up to high sublight or FTL speed as you desire. So you'd need maneuvering thrusters to put you on course in the first place, as well as for orbital or rendezvous maneuvers. But the warp drive would do for everything that both impulse and warp are used for in Trek. Though there might need to be some terminological distinction between sublight warp and FTL warp. (Maybe resurrect the decimal-point warp factors from ST:TMP?)
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Old May 31 2014, 02:01 AM   #28
YARN
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Christopher wrote: View Post
If a non-artist may offer a thought:

If you have warp drive, you don't really need a separate impulse drive. An Alcubierre warp drive functions just fine at sublight speeds, giving you a reactionless gravity drive that can let you accelerate to any sublight velocity with no time dilation. In fact, it would be easier to make it work as a sublight drive than as an FTL drive, because you wouldn't have the control problems or Hawking radiation runaway to worry about.

Not to mention that if you have a warp drive, you don't need a navigational deflector either, because any interstellar debris in your path would just get caught in the front of the warp like bugs in a car grille. Except you'd have to be careful not to be pointing at anyone you like when you come out of warp, since the accumulated particles would then shoot forward in a high-energy burst. On the other hand, that would make one heck of a surprise-attack weapon.

The one reason you'd have for a separate propulsion system is that an Alcubierre warp sends you in whatever direction you're going when you activate it. So the way to set out on a certain course would be to accelerate yourself a little in the desired direction using a conventional drive, and then activate the warp to get up to high sublight or FTL speed as you desire. So you'd need maneuvering thrusters to put you on course in the first place, as well as for orbital or rendezvous maneuvers. But the warp drive would do for everything that both impulse and warp are used for in Trek. Though there might need to be some terminological distinction between sublight warp and FTL warp. (Maybe resurrect the decimal-point warp factors from ST:TMP?)
Except the TOS Enterprise is described on screen as having impulse engines, right?

When do they first refer to the defector dish as such, TMP, TNG?
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Old May 31 2014, 08:25 AM   #29
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

^^^
In "The Paradise Syndrome"[TOS] they use a deflector beam to attempt a course change on the incoming asteroid. While we don't see where this beam comes from on the ship, backstage material was already referring to the big copper dish on the front of the Engineering Hull as the "Main sensor/deflector" so I think it's fair to suggest that the idea goes that far back.

Though, I don't think the on-screen dialog ever was that specific until TNG...possibly as late as "The Best of Both Worlds."

I look forward to being corrected by someone.

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Old May 31 2014, 09:05 AM   #30
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

According to Memory Alpha, the first mention of something that does what the deflector does, was something called a 'meteorite beam'. Although no actual part of the ship was appereantly shown to actually be that beam, it does do what the deflector dish does appereantly.

As for TNG, the first show after TOS, it would indeed appear that the first time the deflector is used on screen to achieve 'something', is indeed Best Of Both Worlds.
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