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Old June 18 2014, 12:08 AM   #151
darrenw
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

MadMan1701A wrote: View Post
Interesting discussion, guys.

All of this is making me think about windows. Originally I was going to have a bunch on the outside of my habitation area, but I think I might just do a few banks of large windows that would be like dark observation areas. 2 on each side of the ship would be plenty, I would think.

About the bridge... I'm going to go with the idea that it's right about in the center of the habitable part of the ship.

Going to start modeling some more tonight...

-Ricky
i wanna ask about habitation does it have gravity
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Old June 18 2014, 12:22 AM   #152
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Yep, they've got artificial gravity. The decks are oriented perpendicular to the direction of travel, like Christopher had suggested earlier. The idea was that older ships would have relied on their thrust/acceleration for gravity.

With the FTL Warp Drive, I thought that maybe the tech for real artificial gravity might be an offshoot from that.

Modeling some things now... pics in a while.
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Old June 18 2014, 01:32 AM   #153
darrenw
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

MadMan1701A wrote: View Post
Yep, they've got artificial gravity. The decks are oriented perpendicular to the direction of travel, like Christopher had suggested earlier. The idea was that older ships would have relied on their thrust/acceleration for gravity.

With the FTL Warp Drive, I thought that maybe the tech for real artificial gravity might be an offshoot from that.

Modeling some things now... pics in a while.
oh awsome i heard that on this http://www.st-v-sw.net/Obsidian/Martin/gravity.htm about Early human-built interstellar ships used rotating centrifuges to mimic the effects of gravity but Starfleet vessels used antigravity and Daedalus Class used antigravity generators given the absence of rotating centrifuges in their hull geometries.
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Old June 18 2014, 06:56 PM   #154
largo
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Christopher wrote: View Post
otherwise, the whole system is likely to lie in a single plane, right? including habitats and the like, because anything not in the same orbital plane is a large and probably pointless delta-v. so just come in over or under that plane by a bit, and you're in like flynn.
Mostly, but not entirely. In our own system, that's generally true of the planets, less so of the Main Belt asteroids and Jupiter Trojans, while Kuiper Belt objects are at all sorts of inclinations. And exoplanet studies suggest that other planetary systems are mostly coplanar, but there could be exceptions.
space is big. pull back far enough from the solar system, and its a disc. everything you'd care about is in that thin little disc. everything outside that disc is so sparse and so separated by vast distances as to be inconsequential.

But of course space is 3-dimensional. You seem to be thinking in terms of a ship whose trajectory is pretty much parallel to the orbital plane but ducking below or rising above it, like a jet trying to avoid a cloud bank. But there's no reason a ship's trajectory coming into a system couldn't be at a very steep angle to the orbital plane.
and you seem to be thinking that warp travel is all straight line. you're going to need to be able to adjust course to come into a system anyway, so why not optimize your arrival trajectory?

really, its a manufactured tempest. don't drop out of warp in the sky over a major city, and it'll be fine. if you collected all the free atoms in a column a hundred meters wide between here and sirius, it'd mass about a thousandth of a gram. unless deliberately focused and directed towards a target at relativistic velocity, that's just not that dangerous. and if you assume it *is* focused by the warp effect, its trivial to point it somewhere harmless in a volume as large as a solar system.
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Old June 18 2014, 07:46 PM   #155
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

largo wrote: View Post
space is big. pull back far enough from the solar system, and its a disc. everything you'd care about is in that thin little disc.
Yes, but we're not talking about being far away from the system, we're talking about the safest way to arrive in the system given the hazard of the particles ejected forward from a ship coming out of warp. So this is a close-range sort of conversation.


and you seem to be thinking that warp travel is all straight line. you're going to need to be able to adjust course to come into a system anyway, so why not optimize your arrival trajectory?
First off, I've already explained that if we're talking about current Alcubierre-based warp theory, then it probably would be a straight-line sort of thing -- the direction in which a warp bubble propagates is the same as the direction the ship was moving when it initiated the warp bubble. In order to change course, you'd have to drop out of warp and reorient yourself.

Second, optimizing your arrival trajectory is exactly what we're talking about here. But in order to know how to optimize it, you need to know what the hazards are. The first step is defining the dangers, the second is determining how to minimize or avert them. And I have already offered at least two clear suggestions on how to do so: One, come in at a steep enough angle to the system's disk that your "particle forewash" (to coin a term) will only intersect it at a narrow point, minimizing the chances it will hit anything, and two, overshoot the system and neutralize warp pointing away from it. So I don't know what gave you the impression that I wasn't already talking about optimized trajectories.


really, its a manufactured tempest. don't drop out of warp in the sky over a major city, and it'll be fine. if you collected all the free atoms in a column a hundred meters wide between here and sirius, it'd mass about a thousandth of a gram. unless deliberately focused and directed towards a target at relativistic velocity, that's just not that dangerous.
But that's the whole point: it would be at relativistic velocity. The longer your travel, the more the energy of the particles caught in the warp builds up.

http://www.universetoday.com/93882/w...#ixzz2FaZsXDuM
“Any people at the destination,” the team’s paper concludes, “would be gamma ray and high energy particle blasted into oblivion due to the extreme blueshifts for [forward] region particles.”

In other words, don’t expect much of a welcome party.

Another thing the team found is that the amount of energy released is dependent on the length of the superluminal journey, but there is potentially no limit on its intensity.

“Interestingly, the energy burst released upon arriving at the destination does not have an upper limit,” McMonigal told Universe Today in an email. “You can just keep on traveling for longer and longer distances to increase the energy that will be released as much as you like, one of the odd effects of General Relativity. Unfortunately, even for very short journeys the energy released is so large that you would completely obliterate anything in front of you.”
It sounds like this is the same kind of runaway feedback loop you get in wormholes if you don't have exotic matter to stabilize them -- the potential for the energy of the particles to ramp up without limit. So hell yes, we are talking about a very, very dangerous effect here.


and if you assume it *is* focused by the warp effect, its trivial to point it somewhere harmless in a volume as large as a solar system.
Not necessarily. The article continues:
So how to avoid disintegrating your port of call? It may be as simple as just aiming your vessel a bit off to the side… or, it may not. The research only focused on the planar space in front of and behind the warp bubble; deadly postwarp particle beams could end up blown in all directions!
So this may be a bigger problem than we thought....

And yes, of course you can point it somewhere harmless (maybe), but the point is that you need to know where the harmless directions are. You'd need a detailed, updated map of every inhabited object or vessel in the system you were approaching. Sure, the odds of hitting anything by accident in the vastness of space are minuscule, but the danger is so great that it would be reckless not to be aware of the risk and take every feasible step to minimize it. When you're controlling a ship with the power to annihilate an entire civilization just by slowing down, it is not okay to shrug and say "Meh, it'll work itself out."
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Old June 18 2014, 09:49 PM   #156
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Christopher wrote: View Post
First off, I've already explained that if we're talking about current Alcubierre-based warp theory, then it probably would be a straight-line sort of thing -- the direction in which a warp bubble propagates is the same as the direction the ship was moving when it initiated the warp bubble. In order to change course, you'd have to drop out of warp and reorient yourself.
poppycock, fields are malleable. while we're all speculating on unproven theories and technologies...
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Old June 18 2014, 10:31 PM   #157
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Some of us in this thread have chosen to speculate based on existing theories, to work within the constraints of that framework as a creative exercise. It allows more focused speculation than just making up stuff in a vacuum, and the choice to work within a set of constraints can be more creatively challenging and rewarding. That's the spirit in which I offer my discussions of what real physics says. I'm not trying to be negative or shoot things down; I see that some of the designers here are interested in basing their models on Alcubierre warp theory and I'm providing information about what that theory says in order to help them. Okay?

Besides, "unproven" is a meaningless term when talking about scientific theories. "Proof" is not a concept scientists use; theories are derived from observations and make predictions that can be tested to assess their usefulness. The Alcubierre warp drive is a solution of the equations of General Relativity, a theory that has been verified by countless experiments and observations. It's not some new, separate theory, it's just an esoteric consequence of a theory that was formulated nearly a century ago and has been overwhelmingly supported by the evidence. We know that the GR equations are a reliable description of how space, time, energy, and gravity work in nearly every observed situation (except on the quantum scale), and Alcubierre merely calculated how to apply those equations to create a spacetime metric that would behave like a warp drive. So it's more solid than mere speculation.
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Old June 18 2014, 10:53 PM   #158
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

But Christopher, I'm not sure why you've come to the conclusion that Alcubierre's solutions imply a strictly straight-line course. I've looked at White's documents coming out of NASA's Advanced Propulsion Labs, and it looks like the field effect from the warp drive is localized. While the drive itself doesn't have any obvious means of steering, if the ship is turned using old-fashioned rockets while in flight, the drive field should adjust accordingly, and the ship will move on a new heading.
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Old June 19 2014, 01:01 AM   #159
sojourner
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

largo wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
First off, I've already explained that if we're talking about current Alcubierre-based warp theory, then it probably would be a straight-line sort of thing -- the direction in which a warp bubble propagates is the same as the direction the ship was moving when it initiated the warp bubble. In order to change course, you'd have to drop out of warp and reorient yourself.
poppycock, fields are malleable. while we're all speculating on unproven theories and technologies...
Wow, the "nuh-uh" defense. Very nice.
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Old June 19 2014, 01:20 AM   #160
largo
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Christopher wrote: View Post
I see that some of the designers here are interested in basing their models on Alcubierre warp theory and I'm providing information about what that theory says in order to help them. Okay?
of course its okay. and i'm disagreeing with you. okay?
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Old June 19 2014, 01:23 AM   #161
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Psion wrote: View Post
But Christopher, I'm not sure why you've come to the conclusion that Alcubierre's solutions imply a strictly straight-line course. I've looked at White's documents coming out of NASA's Advanced Propulsion Labs, and it looks like the field effect from the warp drive is localized. While the drive itself doesn't have any obvious means of steering, if the ship is turned using old-fashioned rockets while in flight, the drive field should adjust accordingly, and the ship will move on a new heading.
Hmm, well, I was basing my assumption on White's 2012 paper, specifically this part:
Consider the following to help illustrate the point – assume the spacecraft heads out towards Alpha Centauri and has a conventional propulsion system capable of reaching 0.1c. The spacecraft initiates a boost field with a value of 100 which acts on the initial velocity resulting in an apparent speed of 10c. The spacecraft will make it to Alpha Centauri in 0.43 years as measured by an earth observer and an observer in the flat space-time volume encapsulated by the warp bubble.
Since the warp bubble was symmetrical with no intrinsic way to steer, I just assumed it would be on a set trajectory. Has White released more recent work that covers what happens if the ship changes course?
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Old June 19 2014, 04:13 AM   #162
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Hmm, well, I was basing my assumption on White's 2012 paper, specifically this part:
Consider the following to help illustrate the point – assume the spacecraft heads out towards Alpha Centauri and has a conventional propulsion system capable of reaching 0.1c. The spacecraft initiates a boost field with a value of 100 which acts on the initial velocity resulting in an apparent speed of 10c. The spacecraft will make it to Alpha Centauri in 0.43 years as measured by an earth observer and an observer in the flat space-time volume encapsulated by the warp bubble.
Since the warp bubble was symmetrical with no intrinsic way to steer, I just assumed it would be on a set trajectory. Has White released more recent work that covers what happens if the ship changes course?
No. But I don't think the ship has the limitation you infer in the first place. Yes, the warp bubble is symmetrical, without a way to steer it off-axis, but there's nothing that insists that the bubble is locked into the orientation it had when it was activated. It's a localized effect. That's why I suggested rockets for a reaction control system that can steer the ship. Point the ship in a new direction, and the bubble will point that way, too.

In the process, perhaps some of those accumulating relativistic particles will be shed, too.
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Old June 19 2014, 04:39 AM   #163
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

White does suggest that the buildup of particles can be minimized by cycling the warp bubble on and off repeatedly while in motion.
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Old June 19 2014, 02:39 PM   #164
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

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White does suggest that the buildup of particles can be minimized by cycling the warp bubble on and off repeatedly while in motion.
Yeah, I've had the thought that Alcubierre drives might be better suited for short hops than long trips. In a spec novel I've written, I've established that the starfaring community prefers wormholes for long-distance travel and uses warp more for local, even intrasystem travel. (As I said, it makes an excellent sublight gravity drive, without the complications that arise at effective superluminal velocities.)
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Old June 19 2014, 03:27 PM   #165
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Nope, you misread the intent. He suggests cycling it rapidly while in use. Not limiting it to short trips.

Here's a presentation he gave in 2013 worth watching:

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