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Old June 16 2014, 11:35 PM   #136
sojourner
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Those are nice ideas, but outside the scope of this project.
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Old June 17 2014, 12:01 AM   #137
darrenw
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

their just ideas its about time our goverment and nasa builds a spaceship or starship to use it for missions in our solar system but have rotating centrifuge inside hull great gravity and have ion engines or fusion engines etc sounds a idea
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Old June 17 2014, 12:23 AM   #138
sojourner
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

darrenw wrote: View Post
their just ideas its about time our goverment and nasa builds a spaceship or starship to use it for missions in our solar system but have rotating centrifuge inside hull great gravity and have ion engines or fusion engines etc sounds a idea
We still have a hard time getting to orbit. We're not even close to building a "starship" to travel the solar system. Ion engines are too slow for manned craft and fusion engines don't exist yet.
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Old June 17 2014, 03:19 AM   #139
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

After seeing all these designs, I'm imagining something still different. It's based on the IXS ship, but imagine it evolving 200 years. Since it's been said that coming out of warp inside a solar system has the side effect of projecting whatever detritus the ship has collected on its FTL journey, I can imagine a regulation prohibiting the use of warp fields inside a star system during peacetime, so my idea calls for a detachable ship, much like the saucer sections do in the ships we're used to seeing, except the entire ship detaches from the rings. I'm thinking of telescoping struts and power couplings that would allow the ship to slide right out, leaving the rings on the edge of the system so the ship can proceed safely toward the habitable areas of the systems it visits.

As for the ship itself, I'm picturing 5 rings, 1000 ft inner diameter, 1100 ft outer diameter, 200 ft wide, ship's overall length 2000 ft. No part of the ship core extends beyond the rings, but its length is a result of the need to fit the ship inside the rings with sufficient clearance for the telescoping struts and the warp field itself. I'm assuming biological contact with the bubble is harmful here. The ship core, as a result of its need to fit inside the rings, is a smooth cylinder apart from the ring struts which telescope down to 1/2 their working length then fold against the hull when in sublight mode. Sublight engines are situated at the back (naturally), engineering between the sublight engines and warp reactor, the shuttle tubes at the front, and the bridge in a pop-up room (ala Stargate: Universe's Destiny) right behind the shuttle storage room on the first level. The bridge pops up when the ship detaches from the rings. Beneath the bridge is the flight control deck for shuttle operations and the cargo bay. Between the bridge, flight deck, cargo bay and engineering spaces are the crew habitat, labs, quarters, brig, etc.

There are 18 shuttles, each shuttle can carry 20 in an emergency situation or a mission crew of 6-10 and there are 6 shuttle tubes. All tubes can launch simultaneously but each tube can only launch one shuttle at a time. The ship has a crew of 360 so everyone can get out in case of an emergency. Shuttles are parked and stored in a position that allows them to be rapidly filled and launched, thus shuttles must come aboard backwards because there is no space aboard ship to turn around. The shuttles are designed to fly in either direction in space and flight controls are not dependent on direction. The shuttles are multipurpose in design and are cylindrical in shape. An aero field is projected when planetfall is necessary that projects a rigid forcefield in the shape of whatever the pilot wants to emulate. The default shape is a simple transparent ovoid, though the field can change opacity and shape with varying degrees of complexity. Care must be taken in shape selection because it will affect handling in atmosphere.

If anyone wants to try their hand at rendering that, have at it ^.^

Last edited by Maxillius; June 17 2014 at 03:33 AM.
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Old June 17 2014, 04:30 AM   #140
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Maxillius wrote: View Post
Since it's been said that coming out of warp inside a solar system has the side effect of projecting whatever detritus the ship has collected on its FTL journey, I can imagine a regulation prohibiting the use of warp fields inside a star system during peacetime, so my idea calls for a detachable ship, much like the saucer sections do in the ships we're used to seeing, except the entire ship detaches from the rings. I'm thinking of telescoping struts and power couplings that would allow the ship to slide right out, leaving the rings on the edge of the system so the ship can proceed safely toward the habitable areas of the systems it visits.
That's a nice idea, except it should be pointed out that in space, a collision hazard is more a matter of direction than distance. There's no atmosphere to slow things down, so the particles will maintain their velocity and intensity over just about any distance.

So maybe the safe thing to do would be to overshoot the populated portion of a star system and come out of warp pointing away from it (while making sure you weren't pointing at any other inhabited system you knew of), then loop around and come in at sublight.

Come to think of it, though, I believe the particles would not be particularly hazardous to inhabited planets. After all, Earth gets bombarded by relativistic particles all the time -- cosmic rays -- and they're safely absorbed by the atmosphere. Not to mention all the meteoroids and bolides that burn up in the atmosphere on a regular basis. The atmosphere is a pretty effective deflector shield for the planet. So this would really only be a danger to other ships and stations, which are much smaller targets and much less likely (though not impossible) to be hit accidentally.


I'm assuming biological contact with the bubble is harmful here.
Well, yeah, since the edge of the warp bubble is a really severe gravity gradient. "Harmful" would be putting it mildly.


...and the bridge in a pop-up room (ala Stargate: Universe's Destiny) right behind the shuttle storage room on the first level. The bridge pops up when the ship detaches from the rings.
Why does it need to pop up? Having a bridge on the top of a ship is a custom from old naval vessels where the commanders needed to have a high vantage point to see what was going on, but it's just an affectation for a spaceship, and a very unwise one, since putting the command center on the surface of the ship makes it vulnerable to attack, radiation, meteoroid impacts, etc. As long as you've got sensors and viewscreens, there's no good reason to expose your command center like that. Heck, even submarines use periscopes. Ideally the vital areas like the bridge should be fairly deep inside the ship.
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Old June 17 2014, 05:16 AM   #141
Maxillius
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Christopher wrote: View Post

That's a nice idea, except it should be pointed out that in space, a collision hazard is more a matter of direction than distance. There's no atmosphere to slow things down, so the particles will maintain their velocity and intensity over just about any distance.

So maybe the safe thing to do would be to overshoot the populated portion of a star system and come out of warp pointing away from it (while making sure you weren't pointing at any other inhabited system you knew of), then loop around and come in at sublight.

Come to think of it, though, I believe the particles would not be particularly hazardous to inhabited planets. After all, Earth gets bombarded by relativistic particles all the time -- cosmic rays -- and they're safely absorbed by the atmosphere. Not to mention all the meteoroids and bolides that burn up in the atmosphere on a regular basis. The atmosphere is a pretty effective deflector shield for the planet. So this would really only be a danger to other ships and stations, which are much smaller targets and much less likely (though not impossible) to be hit accidentally.
True, the planet's occupants are quite safe, but any orbiting habitats and satellites wouldn't be. Overshooting would be a good idea, but dropping the rings which would be a good 2/3rds of the vessel's mass would still be prudent for intrasystem mobility. Think of it like a semi truck dropping its trailer.



Why does it need to pop up? Having a bridge on the top of a ship is a custom from old naval vessels where the commanders needed to have a high vantage point to see what was going on, but it's just an affectation for a spaceship, and a very unwise one, since putting the command center on the surface of the ship makes it vulnerable to attack, radiation, meteoroid impacts, etc. As long as you've got sensors and viewscreens, there's no good reason to expose your command center like that. Heck, even submarines use periscopes. Ideally the vital areas like the bridge should be fairly deep inside the ship.
Strictly speaking it doesn't *have to* pop up, but it's there to keep the designers happy. The ship's core is basically just a big can with a couple windows and some ring support pylons. Engineers like to put little flourishes in designs and the least I could do is give them a bridge module that elevates 4 feet to give an outside view to the bridge crew. In a battle situation, it goes back down and the bridge egress lift locks out in the event of an intruder alert. By the way, the lift is added security due to it being the only way in or out. Also, in the event of an emergency, the bridge module can eject and keep the bridge crew alive long enough to dock with a shuttle.

As for the rings that are left behind, I thought about leaving them under computer control or having a minimal crew stay behind in a pod just in case they need to be moved. Maybe a computer can be trusted to move it to where it's asked, but if hostiles are around, I wouldn't want to park my car with the windows down and the keys in it. So, if needed, a habitat/control pod will drop from the center ring on a scissored pylon that will sustain a small engineering crew for 2 weeks. This pod will be about twice the size of a large tour bus and will get its power from the shuttle that docks with it. This shuttle will also be the source of power for the rings while the ship is away. Obviously the range of this situation will be limited but it should be sufficient to get out of harm's way. But usually, in a non-hostile situation, the pod's computer can handle monitoring and stationkeeping duties.
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Old June 17 2014, 08:02 AM   #142
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

firstly, orbiting habitats and satellites get hit by the same near-c cosmic rays that planets do. so if they're good for that, they're good for whatever.

otherwise, the whole system is likely to lie in a single plane, right? including habitats and the like, because anything not in the same orbital plane is a large and probably pointless delta-v. so just come in over or under that plane by a bit, and you're in like flynn.
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Old June 17 2014, 09:07 AM   #143
darrenw
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

has Dr white and nasa ever look into antimatter and matter power yet to give warp drive extra power i no we need negative vacuum energy to get the warp drive to work but it be idea i no we dont have Dilithium Crystals to help aswell but it doesnt exist. But i no that Deuterium is real they can be found in our oceans
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Old June 17 2014, 10:45 AM   #144
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

I was thinking about this thread on the ride home, yesterday, and just like with all of MadMan1701A's art threads, I'm really looking forward to seeing his design here finished. (I'd say 33% of the reason I visit the Fan Art forum is MadMan1701A's threads. 34% is everyone else's stuff. And the final 33% is watching to see if Kaiser will ever tell someone that their art just plain sucks out loud. )

And I have a suggestion/request for MadMan1701A for after this ship is done. No hurry, no pressure, and if you want to work on some other ideas you've got first, I'm sure I'll like those, too. But can we please see a lineage for the Ent-A through Ent-E, assuming this ship as the 1701 that they evolved from?
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Old June 17 2014, 02:44 PM   #145
Christopher
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Maxillius wrote: View Post
Strictly speaking it doesn't *have to* pop up, but it's there to keep the designers happy. The ship's core is basically just a big can with a couple windows and some ring support pylons. Engineers like to put little flourishes in designs and the least I could do is give them a bridge module that elevates 4 feet to give an outside view to the bridge crew. In a battle situation, it goes back down and the bridge egress lift locks out in the event of an intruder alert.
Four feet below the hull is hardly a sufficient depth in a battle situation. Ideally you want your most vital areas as deep in the core of the ship as possible. Also, it's not just about battle. The hazards of micrometeoroids and cosmic radiation are constants.

I can see the aesthetic value of having some kind of detail on the hull, but does it have to be the bridge? Why not an observation gallery or rec room? Or an outboard science lab that can be easily isolated/jettisoned in case something hazardous to the ship is activated/unleashed/created? (Better than all those Voyager episodes where they examined unknown and potentially explosive alien devices two meters from the warp core.)


By the way, the lift is added security due to it being the only way in or out.
Only one way out of the bridge? Sounds like a bad idea to have no emergency exit. There's a reason why every Trek bridge design since 1973 has had at least two exits.


largo wrote: View Post
firstly, orbiting habitats and satellites get hit by the same near-c cosmic rays that planets do. so if they're good for that, they're good for whatever.
It's a matter of degree. Being hit by the occasional stray relativistic particle is one thing, but being hit by a whole concentrated storm of them at once is another -- like the difference between getting hit by a pebble and getting hit by a cannonball.


otherwise, the whole system is likely to lie in a single plane, right? including habitats and the like, because anything not in the same orbital plane is a large and probably pointless delta-v. so just come in over or under that plane by a bit, and you're in like flynn.
Mostly, but not entirely. In our own system, that's generally true of the planets, less so of the Main Belt asteroids and Jupiter Trojans, while Kuiper Belt objects are at all sorts of inclinations. And exoplanet studies suggest that other planetary systems are mostly coplanar, but there could be exceptions.

But of course space is 3-dimensional. You seem to be thinking in terms of a ship whose trajectory is pretty much parallel to the orbital plane but ducking below or rising above it, like a jet trying to avoid a cloud bank. But there's no reason a ship's trajectory coming into a system couldn't be at a very steep angle to the orbital plane. For instance, a ship coming to Sol system from Polaris would be coming in almost perpendicularly to the orbital plane from galactic north. Similarly, a ship from Alpha Centauri would be coming in at a steep angle from galactic south.

We're conditioned to think of the orbital plane as "flat" and to define things as "above" or "below" it based on our planetary instincts, but that's a misleading habit in space. In a planetary system, "down" is toward the star. Period. (Or if you're close enough to a single planet or other object that its gravity dominates, then "down" is toward that object.)
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Old June 17 2014, 05:06 PM   #146
Maxillius
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Christopher wrote: View Post

Four feet below the hull is hardly a sufficient depth in a battle situation. Ideally you want your most vital areas as deep in the core of the ship as possible. Also, it's not just about battle. The hazards of micrometeoroids and cosmic radiation are constants.

I can see the aesthetic value of having some kind of detail on the hull, but does it have to be the bridge? Why not an observation gallery or rec room? Or an outboard science lab that can be easily isolated/jettisoned in case something hazardous to the ship is activated/unleashed/created? (Better than all those Voyager episodes where they examined unknown and potentially explosive alien devices two meters from the warp core.)
Actually, The bridge module *extends* 4 feet above the surface, and that's only the roofline. I just wanted to let a bit of starlight into the bridge. It's purely aesthetic since the exterior windows are right up next to the ceiling on the bridge and only anyone on the upper ring by the entrance or on the command riser would be able to see out. I'm actually thinking of something very similar to Destiny's bridge, but without the half-million years of rust and with Star Trek computer interfaces. When it retracts, it's flush with the rest of the ship without even orange warning paint marking off where it is. The only way anyone would know it does that is to see it up or see it coming up.

As for making other parts of the ship do that, hey, why not. Heck, a retractable roof over the hydroponics bay and a pop-out observatory section for entertaining visiting dignitaries could be neat additions.

Only one way out of the bridge? Sounds like a bad idea to have no emergency exit. There's a reason why every Trek bridge design since 1973 has had at least two exits.
I'm going to nitpick this part. In TOS, we never saw the bridge taken over by anyone that wasn't allowed in. It was never stormed and even in TMP when the order to clear the bridge was given, everyone made for a single lift. In TNG, there were a couple times when both bridge entrances were used to take the ship (Or was that Voyager?). Also, the majority of intruders to the bridge BEAMED in, so even having one door wouldn't've helped in those cases. Having one entry/exit point provides a security bottleneck. And as I mentioned previously, the bridge module can separate in an emergency. Which would you prefer, two entrances into the bridge so that your marines can storm the place to take the ship back or a detachable bridge that can be jettisoned with the invaders aboard and just run the ship from auxiliary control after the bridge module is disabled/destroyed?

Kirk could've let the Klingons beam right into the bridge, jettisoned it, then blew *that* up instead of scuttling the whole ship.
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Old June 17 2014, 06:45 PM   #147
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Maxillius wrote: View Post
Actually, The bridge module *extends* 4 feet above the surface, and that's only the roofline. I just wanted to let a bit of starlight into the bridge.
Which is problematical if the star happens to give off a lethal radiation flare...

One thing that science fiction rarely acknowledges, and that's hard for us ground-dwellers protected by dozens of kilometers of atmosphere to grasp, is just how intense the radiation in outer space is. It's a constant hazard, and judging from what the Voyager probe that recently left the heliopause has reported back, it's even more intense in interstellar space. So having a window to look at the stars is a rather more problematical matter in a spaceship than it is on the ground. That window would have to have pretty good radiation shielding.

It's purely aesthetic since the exterior windows are right up next to the ceiling on the bridge and only anyone on the upper ring by the entrance or on the command riser would be able to see out.
Would they? Have you ever been in a lighted room and looked out the window at the night sky? What do you see? You see a reflection of the inside of the room, because it's a whole lot brighter than the stars. Not to mention that if your eyes are acclimated to the light, the stars would be too dim for you to see anyway even if the reflections weren't there. So the sci-fi conceit of visible stars out the window of a brightly lit room is a complete and utter lie. You might as well have mirrors there instead of windows. The only way you can see the stars through the window is if you turn out the lights inside and wait a couple of minutes for your pupils to dilate -- which is not something you're going to want to do in a spaceship command center.

One can rationalize the impossible windows in film and TV SF by assuming they're using some advanced technology to amplify the starlight and damp reflections -- but in that case, why not just use viewscreens that simulate windows?


As for making other parts of the ship do that, hey, why not. Heck, a retractable roof over the hydroponics bay and a pop-out observatory section for entertaining visiting dignitaries could be neat additions.
I'm not sure why a ship needs moving parts, unless there's some reason to have a component that extends out beyond the radius of the warp rings. It's the same problem with Voyager's hinged nacelles -- why not just build them at that angle to begin with?


I'm going to nitpick this part. In TOS, we never saw the bridge taken over by anyone that wasn't allowed in.
So? A second door would surely have the same security in place as the first door.


even in TMP when the order to clear the bridge was given, everyone made for a single lift.
Actually, no, they didn't:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd2435.jpg

(If that link doesn't go through, it's the top right image on this page of thumbnails.)


Also, the majority of intruders to the bridge BEAMED in, so even having one door wouldn't've helped in those cases.
I'm not talking about repelling intruders. I'm talking about the need to evacuate in an emergency. If the bridge is on fire and the turbolift is damaged, then you're going to desperately need an alternate exit route.
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Old June 17 2014, 07:13 PM   #148
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

I've long felt that the bridge, properly situated in the heart of the ship (saucer, in the Trek case) would be best. You can always create the equivalent of a pilothouse or flying bridge on an upper deck or forward compartment for use if you genuinely needed windows.
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Old June 17 2014, 08:46 PM   #149
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

Interesting discussion, guys.

All of this is making me think about windows. Originally I was going to have a bunch on the outside of my habitation area, but I think I might just do a few banks of large windows that would be like dark observation areas. 2 on each side of the ship would be plenty, I would think.

About the bridge... I'm going to go with the idea that it's right about in the center of the habitable part of the ship.

Going to start modeling some more tonight...

-Ricky
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Old June 17 2014, 08:48 PM   #150
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Re: Imagine the Enterprise, over again!

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
I was thinking about this thread on the ride home, yesterday, and just like with all of MadMan1701A's art threads, I'm really looking forward to seeing his design here finished. (I'd say 33% of the reason I visit the Fan Art forum is MadMan1701A's threads. 34% is everyone else's stuff. And the final 33% is watching to see if Kaiser will ever tell someone that their art just plain sucks out loud. )

And I have a suggestion/request for MadMan1701A for after this ship is done. No hurry, no pressure, and if you want to work on some other ideas you've got first, I'm sure I'll like those, too. But can we please see a lineage for the Ent-A through Ent-E, assuming this ship as the 1701 that they evolved from?
Thanks.

That's an interesting idea... I would think that as technology advances, it would start to look more like the Enterprise that we're used to. I'll be thinking about that.

-Ricky
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