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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 21 2014, 12:01 AM   #16
Dukhat
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

^A working android that couldn't find its way out of a paper bag.
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Old May 21 2014, 12:17 AM   #17
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

Dukhat wrote: View Post
^A working android that couldn't find its way out of a paper bag.
I don't think its intelligence would be an issue. It's all the advanced circuitry on the inside. The Kolarans may have been to the point where they could understand some of it.
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Old May 21 2014, 01:33 AM   #18
Destructor
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

True! Look what the Terminator's arm and brain circuitry led to.
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Old May 21 2014, 03:21 AM   #19
Lance
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

Yeah, collecting the parts is on some level justified in the script. Isn't there dialogue specifying that the Kolarans are at an 'industrial age' level of development? Certainly they've got land vehicles figured out, so leaving B-4 there for them to uncover could result in them accumulating technological advancement centuries ahead of their time. I think what rankles with me about the sequence isn't so much Picard acting so out-of-character in wanting to trawl over the surface of a planet in a Jeep in the first place, but more the scenes where they open fire on the Kolarans that are attacking them. Sure they're under attack, sure maybe Worf went for non-lethal takedowns or something, but it's just like..... that's what makes it such a violation of the Prime Directive. What if they *did* kill some of them? Even by accident?

To be honest I think I'd have found the entire scene more acceptable if the action sequence was excised. Keep Picard, Data and Worf looking for parts down on the planet in their little dune buggy, but cut the following scene where they get into a fire-fight with the locals.
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Old May 21 2014, 03:32 AM   #20
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

I'm confused why they didn't just beam the components up?
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Old May 21 2014, 04:08 AM   #21
trekshark
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
So our favorite not-quite-Reman digs up a (fake?) Soongian android from some junk heap of Tal'Shiar
The explanation that B4 might have been created by someone else - perhaps, as you sort of suggested here, the Romulans attempting to roll their own Data - rather than actually being created by Soong had frankly never occurred to me. But I like it. And I'm going to blame not wanting to think about Nemesis, period, for not having thought of it.
I like that idea more than the retcon of him being a prototype prior to Data or Lore that real Soong, dream Soong, interactive hologram Soong, and android Mrs. Soong all failed to mention to Data during his interactions with them over the years of the show.
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Old May 21 2014, 04:37 AM   #22
M'rk, son of Mogh
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

trekshark wrote: View Post
I like that idea more than the retcon of him being a prototype prior to Data or Lore that real Soong, dream Soong, interactive hologram Soong, and android Mrs. Soong all failed to mention to Data during his interactions with them over the years of the show.
His mom mentioned them. Why isn't that good enough? It sounds like she's talking about B-4 exactly in Inheritance, actually.

JULIANA: But... how do you know the same thing won't happen? Creating a stable positronic matrix is very tricky -- your Father lost several prototypes before Lore.

DATA: I was not aware that he created any androids before my brother.

JULIANA: There were three of them... they were like children to us... losing them was very painful. When Noonian decided to try again, I was very much against it. I didn't think we had the right to bring a life into the world that had so little chance of surviving.
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Old May 21 2014, 06:36 AM   #23
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm confused why they didn't just beam the components up?
There was a field of Poltyons in the upper atmosphere of the planet.
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Old May 21 2014, 06:48 AM   #24
Lance
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

See, that's how I see it. Them needing to go down there in some kind of all-terrain vehicle and manually pick up B4's bits on foot can be justified in plot terms. Having to use the Argo to evade capture from an attacking group of the native population can be justified in plot terms. But it's the bit where they open fire on the Kolarans which doesn't strike me as being particularly right. It's certainly not something I can imagine Picard's conscience being able to live with.

(Somebody's going to quote me all the times during TNG where he allowed practical matters to overcome his conscience/the prime directive now, but I still feel that it's fundamentally out-of-character for Picard to encourage that situation in the first place.)
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Old May 21 2014, 09:19 AM   #25
Timo
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

Those natives were shooting at them! And it didn't look like blanks. Any one of those shots could have potentially killed Picard.
Exactly. Which is why it looks like a setup. Because if it weren't, Picard would be dead.

It's the clumsiest "ambush" in the history of ambushes since Shurgor the Sneezer tried to hide in the poison ivy with his brave naked men (including the military band with all the cymbals and jingles) during the mosquito season. The natives had no need to fire from the move when first taking aim at Picard, nor a need to leave an escape route open for his buggy. And nobody went inside the shuttle with its open cargo door?

If Shinzon had access to an actual Soong android, and he was now the new Praetor, why didn't he just contact the Federation, tell them what he had, and specifically ask for the Enterprise to come to Romulus to get it? That way he'd have Picard and a way to get B4 onto the Enterprise, without resorting to wasting time on Kolarus.
The way the events transpired (regardless of whether it was Shinzon's doing), Picard was not invited to Romulus. Rather, Starfleet sent a "random" ship with a "random" skipper. Which might be important for Shinzon, whose explicit and sole goal was to invite Jean-Luc Picard, the man on whom his own life depended.

On second thought, why even bother with B4? If Shinzon needed Picard's blood to survive, why didn't he just contact Picard and tell him this?
Shinzon was the product of a Romulan plot to duplicate Starfleet personnel. The Romulans no doubt also wanted a Soongian android of their own, either as part of this program or then in an unrelated effort. They would have tried to acquire one, or build one; and while B-4 was a failure in that regard, he would naturally have come to Shinzon's attention through the duplication program.

Why not use B-4? As said, Shinzon wouldn't have wanted anybody to know about his need for Picard specifically (you don't reveal your one fatal weakness early on if you are an Evil Overlord, and the fairy godmother wasn't around to reveal it, either), so asking was out of the question. But with B-4, he could kill half a dozen birds with one stone. Or hammer, as it's probably also a case of "everything looks like a nail": Shinzon, a tool in an agent insertion program, would now complete the project to insert a Soongian agent aboard a Starfleet ship! He gets Picard, he gets access to Starfleet data, and in the best-case scenario, he even becomes Picard and might be able to take over the E-E - either as a further tool for his nefarious purposes, or then as a Plan A that secures his retirement (with the wrecking of everything in vengeful anger, starting with Earth, being but a Plan B).

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Old May 21 2014, 09:24 AM   #26
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

His mom mentioned them. Why isn't that good enough?
Because Noonian was said to have "lost" them? B-4 may look lost, but that's probably not what Juliana meant, and if Noonian had access to B-4, he would simply have continued to work on it.

Of course, B-FOUR is a bit suggestive, too, if there were three failed prototypes in evidence.

But it's the bit where they open fire on the Kolarans which doesn't strike me as being particularly right.
Well, Worf is probably firing a phaser. So for all we know, a direct hit at a local would only have stunned him!

We've seen phasers at apparent stun setting achieve interesting things such as cutting through metal ("Legacy"), so this setting overturning an enemy buggy need not be a contradiction. OTOH, Worf could probably toggle...

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Old May 21 2014, 11:53 AM   #27
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

Nebusj wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm confused why they didn't just beam the components up?
There was a field of Poltyons in the upper atmosphere of the planet.
Just an ion storm that could head in their direction. It wasn't that it was currently interfering with transporters, just that it could.

Star Trek: Nemesis wrote:
LAFORGE: Captain, I wouldn't recommend using the transporter. That ion storm doesn't look very neighbourly. It could head in our direction without much warning.
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Old May 21 2014, 12:09 PM   #28
Mytran
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

Given that the storm wasn't there yet, and that they had located the parts with pinpoint accuracy, why not just beam them up immediately? True they'd probably arrive in clumps of sand and require some cleaning up but is that really such a hassle?

Apparently so! Get your beers and dune buggies everyone!
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Old May 21 2014, 01:34 PM   #29
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

The heroes wave tricorders when searching for the body parts. Are they merely matching their GPS coordinates to previous orbital scans? If so, why are they failing, and two tricorders out of three lead their operators to the wrong spot?

It doesn't look like a "pinpoint" job to me, but rather one that would absolutely require the witnessed tricorder-waving on the spot before a beam-up would be possible. So the way I would have done it (assuming an "approaching" ion storm does not yet create a health hazard that categorically precludes transporting) would certainly be beaming down to each vague spot, waving the tricorder, uncovering the component, slapping a commbadge or other tag on it, and beaming up - component by component. A shuttle could be standing by to recover a stranded team; surface transportation would not be required.

OTOH, just overflying in a shuttle might have drawbacks: not enough proximity for accurate scans, greater risk of somebody far away spotting the activity, etc. And our heroes wouldn't know what to expect until after surveying the first site up close. So a combination of shuttle and ground work would be the way to go - which means the buggy becomes an allowed feature, even if not a required one. Which is all the excuse Picard needs.

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Old May 21 2014, 02:21 PM   #30
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Re: Why did Picard Violate the Prime Directive in Nemesis??

It goes without saying that Nemesis is complete crap, the kind of thing Damon Lindelof would write under the influence of a heavy dose of Vicodin, and I guarantee that we are giving the story more thought here than John Logan, Rick Berman, or Patrick Stewart ever did.

That being said, here's my take on the Kolarans: they live on a planet near the Neutral Zone, an area of space that Earth and the Romulans have been active in for something like 200 years, way before the Prime Directive existed. So they were probably "contaminated" a long time ago, and now they're a sort of cautionary example of why the Prime Directive is needed.
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