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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 6 2014, 08:42 PM   #46
Dukhat
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Marsden wrote: View Post
I think it would have been a better plot to find out in Nemesis at the end that Sela was Tasha surgically altered and mentally tampered with to think she is her own daughter.
What's ironic is that the TNG porn satire produced a few years ago actually had a good storyline: Alternate Tasha wasn't dead, just in suspended animation. She was then released and returned to the Enterprise-D, where she interacted with the crew even though she was from the alternate Klingon war universe. Then it turned out that Sela had "programmed" Tasha like Shinzon programmed B4 (to get information about the Enterprise without knowing she was actually doing it). When the truth was uncovered, Tasha ends up dying, but at least she died surrounded by her friends.
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Old June 6 2014, 08:46 PM   #47
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
In a militaristic and highly competitive society like the Romulan Empire, Decius' "friends" are extremely likely to lose their shit over their buddy having a spat with his CO. The same danger you face by demoting him is the inherent danger in passing him over for promotion or giving him the most important assignment all the time so he can get promoted that much faster.
But again, nobody outright mentioned anything about Decius getting promoted
That's irrelevant. Nobody's suggesting Decius' friends are going around demanding everyone give him promotions and bonuses. It's simply understood that his friends are dangerous people, and NOT giving him a promotion isn't going to please them.

Not everyone goes out of their way to avoid displeasing dangerous people. But enough people DO for it to become a significant advantage.

We also see a similar situation later where a Romulan general is presiding over a camp of Klingon prisoners which he has made his own personal colony; he, too, is indicated to be kind of a bigshot for the Romulans to let that slide.
The impression I got was that that particular commander was forced to maintain the colony or the prisoners would have been killed, and that he was doing it as a humanitarian gesture at the expense of his own career.
Which the Romulans still let slide out of respect for that career. It may have been a magnanimous last gesture, but it was NOT the magnanimous last gesture of a nobody.

When U.S. Presidents leave office in disgrace, they get their own libraries with a permanent full-time staff. When Burger King mangers leave office in disgrace, they get a cleaning bill for their former office. So what kind of Romulan gets to retire from the military to his own private fiefdom on a jungle planet surrounded by the POWs he personally captured and domesticated?

I'd like to point out that not only has it never been canonically established that Saavik is half-Romulan, but that even if those lines of dialogue stating that stayed in TWOK, there was no context to it. For all we know one of Saavik's parents was simply a defector who sought sanctuary on Vulcan and got married to a native.
It was expanded on at some length in the Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock novelizations, though. Saavik strongly implies the Romulans have a reputation for extreme brutality against their prisoners, apparently based on her personal experience.
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Old June 7 2014, 03:01 AM   #48
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Nobody's suggesting Decius' friends are going around demanding everyone give him promotions and bonuses.
Somebody was suggesting that, actually.

It's simply understood that his friends are dangerous people, and NOT giving him a promotion isn't going to please them.
His friends are dangerous people, but the impression is that they're only going to make the Commander's life miserable. If Decius gets promoted because of that, then that's just an unintended consequence, and not the standard way people get promoted in the Empire, which was what the above person was suggesting.

Which the Romulans still let slide out of respect for that career. It may have been a magnanimous last gesture, but it was NOT the magnanimous last gesture of a nobody.
From Memory Alpha:

Tokath sacrificed his career by allowing [the Klingons] to stay, as he was forced to remain to supervise them to prevent their executions. Whether the decision was ratified by Tokath's own compassion, or by a Romulan political agenda to avoid seeming weak, is unclear. Also unclear is Tokath's military status--he is possibly still a member of the Romulan military as he wears a attire reminiscent of Romulan military uniforms, but not the prototypical uniform seen on known military personnel.
So there's quite a bit of murkiness about the situation...far too much murk to be able to adequately prove that Tokath was in any kind of position of power.

It was expanded on at some length in the Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock novelizations, though.
I know what the books say. That's irrelevant to what we saw on screen.

Saavik strongly implies the Romulans have a reputation for extreme brutality against their prisoners, apparently based on her personal experience.
Was this something Saavik mentioned in the films? I don't ever recall her talking about Romulans.
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Old June 15 2014, 03:56 PM   #49
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
What role could she have played? Taken Donatra's place as the Romulan Shinzon snubs? As a half-human, rejecting her would have muddied his weird half-human Troi lust.
Wait, does that mean it's weird for humans such as ourselves to lust after Donatra? Because if so, that could be awkward for... uh... some people. Hypothetically. If there were any such people.
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Old June 15 2014, 07:45 PM   #50
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

I do agree that her rising in the ranks comes off pretty implausible, but given that it had already been set with "Redemption", I was fine with her appearances after that. Despite that, I think her background provides more drama in the conflict between her and Picard that I wish they had not dropped her character in the show. It would have been nice for her to pop up in the movies, but I pretty much wish they did some kind of resolution in the show too. NEM being the last chance to do that, especially with the Romulans being a part of it.
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Old June 15 2014, 10:51 PM   #51
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It was expanded on at some length in the Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock novelizations

Vonda McIntyre is a favorite author, but let's be honest, she create entire sections of the Trek novelizations out of her own ample imagination.

There's absolutely no on screen evidence that Saavik is part Romulan.

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Old June 15 2014, 11:44 PM   #52
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It was expanded on at some length in the Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock novelizations

Vonda McIntyre is a favorite author, but let's be honest, she create entire sections of the Trek novelizations out of her own ample imagination.

There's absolutely no on screen evidence that Saavik is part Romulan.

There isn't any on screen evidence that Saavik was half Romulan, true, but it's so well developed in the novels and comics, I accept it as hard canon. I believe it was intended in the scripts, wasn't it, and just cut out. Is that true or has my imagination run away with me? If so, I wonder if either Alley or Curtis were given any acting instructions on the subject? I do remember hearing Curtis talking about being instructed to play Saavik less emotional.
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Old June 16 2014, 01:27 AM   #53
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I believe it was intended in the scripts, wasn't it, and just cut out.
Scripts go through multiple versions.

In terms of the scripted scenes that were the finished movie, no, Saavik wasn't a half Romulan.

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Old June 16 2014, 01:49 AM   #54
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
What role could she have played? Taken Donatra's place as the Romulan Shinzon snubs?
There's no way Sela could have fulfilled the role that Donatra did.

As we all saw, Donatra was an honorable character and, in the end, relatively friendly towards the Federation; Sela was a radical ultra-nationalist "more Romulan than Romulans" who hated everything about her human half, and by extension, hated the Federation itself. There's no way Sela would have ever helped Picard and crew like Donatra did.

Remember, Donatra seemed rather horrified at Shinzon's plans to wipe out Earth and all the rest of the Federation planets. Sela would have enthusiastically joined in said plans. And whereas Donatra dispatched medical personnel and supplies to aid the stricken Enterprise-E...Sela would have locked weapons and destroyed them.

Sela was full of hate. Donatra was not.

And also remember that there's absolutely no reason to believe anything Sela says. Just look at her attitude; she willingly betrayed her mother to death, and anyone who does that, can't be trusted. Sela said that her father saw Tasha "and became enamoured with her", but for all we know, the general simply had his way with Tasha, let her live long enough to see Sela's birth, and then disposed of her. (Tasha was, after all, a prisoner of war. Of the Romulans, no less. Nobody seriously believes that any of the Enterprise-C survivors - Tasha included - would ever have been allowed to live, right? Romulans simply don't do that. Sela also said that Tasha willingly submitted herself to the general if the Ent-C survivors would be spared - but why take Sela, or the general, at their word? He could easily have ordered the survivors executed anyway.)
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Old June 16 2014, 01:52 AM   #55
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Nepotism would easily have accounted for Sela's rank. It's pretty plausible. She's the spoiled rich kid who got everything handed to her and failed. Imagine how good she would be with some humility and ten years to get better.
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Old June 16 2014, 02:01 AM   #56
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

JRoss wrote: View Post
Nepotism would easily have accounted for Sela's rank
True enough. The Romulan general probably didn't much care for Tasha herself, but I'm sure he did all he could for Sela.
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Old June 16 2014, 09:52 AM   #57
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
There's absolutely no on screen evidence that Saavik is part Romulan.
But it’s a helpful approach to rationalize her tears at the end of ST II: TWOK, because shedding tears would be totally distasteful and out of character for any educated Vulcan.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
And also remember that there's absolutely no reason to believe anything Sela says. Just look at her attitude; she willingly betrayed her mother to death, and anyone who does that, can't be trusted.
Where is any evidence for that claim? Ron Moore’s audio commentary on the “Redemption” Blu-ray disc makes it rather clear that Sela’s account is genuine and accurate, because that’s how TPTB wanted it to be.

Before we start double-guessing the statements of protagonists (and especially in this particular episode ), we should present good reasons to do so. I’m not aware that the TNG writers deliberately introduced ambiguous statements to confuse the audience.

And I look at her attitude – that of a four year old child that understood it was going to be separated from his daddy and didn’t want that to be happening.

What I get from the Sela scene in “Redemption II” is that she actually regrets what happened to her mother, but couldn’t possibly say so in front of Picard. Therefore she puts all the blame on her mother (not convincingly enough, apparently, if you look at Picard’s reaction – I love this scene, one of the best TNG has to offer).

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Old June 16 2014, 10:00 PM   #58
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

^ I hate to sound harsh, but I don't really care what the commentary says. Sela is clearly not to be trusted, and I see no reason at all to take her at her word. I don't even care that she was only 4 when she effectively killed her mother. The least she could do was show SOME remorse.

Although in Romulan society, being an informer might be encouraged...probably is, if Sela is any indication.

And I also stand by my statement that Sela could not have taken Donatra's place in the film. Sela would never have helped Picard and crew, and would have probably fired on and destroyed them (whereas Donatra dispatched aid). And Sela would have been an enthusiastic participant in Shinzon's plans to wipe out every Federation world.
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Old June 17 2014, 01:40 AM   #59
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

borgboy wrote: View Post
There isn't any on screen evidence that Saavik was half Romulan, true, but it's so well developed in the novels and comics, I accept it as hard canon.
Personal canon is the word you're looking for, because if there isn't any screen evidence, it's not canon at all.

I believe it was intended in the scripts, wasn't it, and just cut out. Is that true or has my imagination run away with me? If so, I wonder if either Alley or Curtis were given any acting instructions on the subject? I do remember hearing Curtis talking about being instructed to play Saavik less emotional.
It was intended for Saavik to be half-Romulan in TWOK. By TSFS, that idea was dropped and for all intents and purposes, Saavik was full Vulcan.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But it’s a helpful approach to rationalize her tears at the end of ST II: TWOK, because shedding tears would be totally distasteful and out of character for any educated Vulcan.
Spock cried in TMP.
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Old June 17 2014, 04:27 AM   #60
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

He also laughed. Both were signs that he was embracing his human half, having learned from Vejur that the non-emotional ideal he had sought was "cold, barren."

It is possible, though, that a Vulcan aged 20 to 25 is not expected to have such total emotional control--it would explain Spock's emotional displays in "The Menagerie." For a race that lives a quarter of a millenium, full adulthood might not be reached until the thirties or so. Saavik's tears--like Spock's grinning at the Talosian flora and exclaiming "The women!"--could be chalked up to adolescence.
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