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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 3 2014, 06:56 PM   #31
Robert Comsol
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
While we do not know how many crew members of the Enterprise-C did survive, Sela's father must have already been quite a bigshot in 2344 if he was able to snatch Tasha - in her uniform from the future - from the Tal Shiar.
The Tal Shiar? When was the Tal Shiar mentioned as having anything to do with this? And how would the Romulans automatically know Tasha's uniform was from the future unless she specifically told them where she came from?.
Because it's safe to assume that the Romulans have intel on Starfleet uniforms ca. 2344 and eyes to see?



In my original treatise I also mentioned a couple of possible explanations:
  • There was nothing to worry about because when the Enterprise-C crossed the threshold her “universe at war” uniform somehow transformed into a uniform of 2344
  • Tasha realized that fatal oversight prior to crossing the threshold, got undressed, grabbed Castillo’s phaser and vaporized her uniform and combadge (they were still about to engage the Romulans, not the Ferengi). [Although this image does exist in our reality, I guess it would be inappropriate to illustrate it here] Tasha’s daughter Sela would later state “a Romulan general saw her and became enamoured with her”. No more questions.
  • The Romulans didn’t care and just thought that Tasha Yar had a fancy tailor
  • … maybe the other Picard should have been listening to the other Riker, his own instincts (“Every instinct tells me this is wrong, it is dangerous, it is futile”) and Igor Novikov instead of Guinan…
  • This Enterprise-C went back in time, but got diverted into a similar parallel universe “at war” where it got destroyed but where its actions saved a lot of people so that in total the war in that parallel universe cost less than 40 billion lives and La Forge and Guinan could have a nice conversation about Tasha at the end of a day (while the scene apparently takes place in “our” universe, Geordi’s “universe at war” sleeves retain an interesting touch of ambiguity)
Another explanation would be that the Romulan general who became "enamoured with Tasha" was the head of the Tal-Shiar and/or became actually enamoured with Tasha's fancy uniform.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
And if she did, I doubt that the Romulans would have let her be Sela's daddy's concubine or whatever the hell she was. Had they known she was from the future they would have interrogated her for the rest of her (short) life.
That's exactly what I was trying to communicate in my treatise all along:

"I think that the idea of a Romulan general simply taking Tasha under his wing and away from the Tal Shiar (in “our” universe) rather sounds like a fairy-tale than an authentic story. Tasha’s return to our universe must have been meticulously prepared to provide her with a cover that wouldn’t blow the minute the first survivor was interrogated and none of what we saw in “Yesterday’s Enterprise” did remotely suggest that."

Unfortunately you and a few others were so eager to discredit my treatise that you apparently didn't read what I had to say. But now you agree on one of the major points - Interesting!

Bob
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Old June 3 2014, 11:57 PM   #32
Dukhat
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Because it's safe to assume that the Romulans have intel on Starfleet uniforms ca. 2344 and eyes to see?
The Tal Shiar can't see into the future. They would have no idea that the uniform Tasha was wearing came from twenty years in the future. They would just have assumed that it was some other type of uniform they'd never seen before, or off-duty attire. If you went aboard a Navy ship and saw someone wearing a uniform you were unfamiliar with, would you automatically assume he was from the future too?

Unfortunately you and a few others were so eager to discredit my treatise that you apparently didn't read what I had to say. But now you agree on one of the major points - Interesting!
No one was trying to discredit your opinions; rather, the discredit was coming from your assertions that your opinions were actually facts. But I'm not about to go down that road with you again, so suffice it to say that there's a much simpler explanation: Tasha never told the Romulans she was from the future, for the very reason that if she did, she'd have figured they would have interrogated her and gotten all kinds of knowledge about the future. So instead she kept her mouth shut and was just another survivor of the Ent-C that some guy thought was hot and wanted for his own.
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Old June 4 2014, 04:48 AM   #33
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

borgboy wrote: View Post
Sela is one of the most important Romulan characters in ST history...
Why? She came across as a bumbling idiot to me.
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Old June 4 2014, 05:08 AM   #34
M-Red
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

If Nemesis could have been worse, Sela would have been part of it somehow.
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Old June 4 2014, 09:39 AM   #35
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

M-Red wrote: View Post
If Nemesis could have been worse, Sela would have been part of it somehow.
That's why good direction and an important production staff is just as important as the caliber of acting talent. I mean, case in point: "Star Trek: The Voyage Home" vs. "Star Trek: The Final Frontier". Both Shatner and Nemoy are fine actors, but how their respective films were produced and directed spoke volumes as to the quality of the final product. But let's look at "Star Trek: Nemesis". Good actors, lousy direction, mediocre film. This is not to say that Denise Crosby would have stood out, if you had an A-list director and producer at the helm, but you can't simply say that her portrayal of Sela would have made "Nemesis" worse. Too many variables at work, IMO...
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Old June 4 2014, 11:23 AM   #36
Robert Comsol
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Tasha never told the Romulans she was from the future, for the very reason that if she did, she'd have figured they would have interrogated her and gotten all kinds of knowledge about the future. So instead she kept her mouth shut and was just another survivor of the Ent-C that some guy thought was hot and wanted for his own.

That's a simple explanation that fails to take a look at the bigger picture or context:
  • Captain Garrett discussed with her surviving crew whether they should go back in time or not, so regardless how many survivors were captured next to Tasha they knew they had been to the future
  • From a Romulan point of view the Enterprise-C just vanished without leaving a trace. Although we don't know what happened when she instantly returned from the future (sudden head-on collision course? visible forming of the temporal rift?), the Romulans would have noticed that her power readings (she had been repaired and recharged in the future) were noticably better than before. In simpler words: The Romulans faced a (technological) mystery they surely would have wanted to investigate and took captives (what they supposedly and usually don't do)
  • The survivors were interrogated and we've seen how the Romulans have mastered interrogation and manipulation techniques in "The Mind's Eye". Though we do not know what devices they had in 2344, the Klingon Mind-Sifter from "Errand of Mercy" to "record every bit of knowledge in a man's mind" already existed a 100 years earlier, so it stands to reason that the Romulans of 2344 had devices more than adequate
  • The Romulans would have learned that the Enterprise-C had returned from the future. And that was it? Surely they would have tried to find out, whether they had brought back technology or even people and like it or not - Tasha stood out like a sore thumb. None of the survivors could have possibly known her biography, neither did she know any biographies of the crew members of the "C".
In summary, to seriously assume that Tasha was not meticulously interrogated (despite her strange uniform) is either wishful-thinking or a case of utter Romulan incompetence.
Like I stated at the end of my treatise thread, it appeared that both Ron Moore and David Carson were aware of the problem, elegantly relocated "Yesterday's Enterprise" into a "parallel universe" (Carson) and had Sela's mother come from yet another parallel universe where she had been actually ordered and "sent" by another Picard (who is "responsible" for the whole Situation).

Tasha's depature in this other parallel universe, however, was "meticulously prepared to provide her with a cover that wouldn’t blow the minute the first survivor was interrogated".

And Sela's account seems to confirm this: "They were all to have been executed after the interrogation, but [then] a Romulan general saw her and became enamoured with her."

So whatever cover Tasha had been provided with, it held, and had that Romulan General not showed up she probably would have been executed with the other survivors.

Bob
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Old June 4 2014, 01:19 PM   #37
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

I can't help but agree that all the Enterprise-C crewmembers would have been interrogated for every bit of useful information before they were given the stay of execution - the Romulans are just too expert in their field to believe otherwise.

Even if we are dealing with (another) alternate Tasha who went on to be the mother of Sela, that would not change the fact that she was from the future (albeit an alternate one). Would she not have been wrung dry of information as well? The saving grace of course is that her future info was from a very different future, one distorted by twenty years of war.

As long as Tasha actually was fully interrogated by the Romulans first, I suppose I can accept her slipping into bed with the General in order to save her crewmates. From a Romulan (or Tal Shiar) perspective, once they knew everything she did, what would be the point in keeping her in custody?
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Old June 4 2014, 05:50 PM   #38
Dukhat
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Mytran wrote: View Post
Even if we are dealing with (another) alternate Tasha who went on to be the mother of Sela, that would not change the fact that she was from the future (albeit an alternate one). Would she not have been wrung dry of information as well?
Not necessarily. We really have no idea of Tasha's circumstances after she went back with the Ent-C. For all we know, when the C was destroyed and the survivors were taken prisoner, Tasha in her yellow pajamas could have been mistaken for a civilian and therefore would have had no useful information. Or perhaps Sela's father sheltered her from the Romulan interrogators precisely because he was powerful enough to do so. Heck, we don't even know if the attack on Narendra III was even authorized by the Romulan government. They could have just been renegades like Kruge and Klaa, blowing shit up for the hell of it. We simply don't know, other than Sela's account when she was a little girl which was obviously biased toward the Romulans.
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Old June 4 2014, 06:21 PM   #39
Robert Comsol
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Tasha in her yellow pajamas could have been mistaken for a civilian and therefore would have had no useful information.
Hopefully she had time to remove her rank pips and combadge (something she should have done before entering the transporter chamber of the Enterprise-D).

And somehow I can't possibly imagine Tasha boarding an escape pod because the mission was to fight to the last breath. It's rather likely that the remaining Bridge crew (senior officers) were beamed aboard one of the warbirds for interrogation once the shields had collapsed and prior to the "C"s inevitable destruction. Thus, especially a cilivian on the Bridge would have aroused suspicion.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Or perhaps Sela's father sheltered her from the Romulan interrogators precisely because he was powerful enough to do so. We simply don't know, other than Sela's account when she was a little girl which was obviously biased toward the Romulans.
According to Sela's account they had already been rounded up for execution before Sela's father intervened. Two possibilities:
  • Part of the cover provided for this Tasha had been to put her in a cadet's uniform not to attract unduly attention (this is my canon interpretation based on the "Redemption II" premise change), so Sela's account is correct.
  • She merely retells the story she had learned from her father who was a Tal Shiar General and which isn't exactly correct, i.e. her father noticed there was something strange about Tasha but ignored this because he fell in love with her. Thus, Sela is under the impression that her father told her the true story but actually he covered his ass (because if it got public that he took a person from the future with vital information as his concubine, he could face himself an execution for high treason).
Anyway, the latter explanation would still support the theory that Tasha's father was a real bigshot and thus had means to advance her career - which has been the core issue of the current discussion.

Bob
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Old June 4 2014, 06:54 PM   #40
Dukhat
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

^Again, as I said we have no way of knowing the circumstances after the Ent-C returned to the battle. All we have is Sela's account, which (according to her) happened when she was a little girl. And I wouldn't trust Sela as far as I could throw her.

She merely retells the story she had learned from her father who was a Tal Shiar General
Again, I don't recall Sela saying her father was in the Tal Shiar.
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Old June 5 2014, 07:34 AM   #41
Mytran
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
...we don't even know if the attack on Narendra III was even authorized by the Romulan government. They could have just been renegades like Kruge and Klaa, blowing shit up for the hell of it...
If this were indeed the case, it may plaster over a lot of the "interrogation inconsistencies" that have been bouncing around on this thread (and others) for a while now. If the attackers were independent of the Romulan Government and simply returned to the Star Empire with a group of generic captives destined for the Reman mines, there would be far less reason for extensive Tal Shiar or other interrogative interference. The Romulan General is then free to spot Tasha a the slave market (or whatever) and make his offer. The secret origin of Tasha Yar can then return to a tale she told her daughter as a child.
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Old June 5 2014, 07:43 AM   #42
Dukhat
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Mytran wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
...we don't even know if the attack on Narendra III was even authorized by the Romulan government. They could have just been renegades like Kruge and Klaa, blowing shit up for the hell of it...
If this were indeed the case, it may plaster over a lot of the "interrogation inconsistencies" that have been bouncing around on this thread (and others) for a while now. If the attackers were independent of the Romulan Government and simply returned to the Star Empire with a group of generic captives destined for the Reman mines, there would be far less reason for extensive Tal Shiar or other interrogative interference. The Romulan General is then free to spot Tasha a the slave market (or whatever) and make his offer. The secret origin of Tasha Yar can then return to a tale she told her daughter as a child.
It would also plaster over the fact that the Federation knew hardly anything about the Romulans' activities between 2311 and "The Neutral Zone" despite two very prominent incidents. If both the Narendra III and Khitomer attacks were just carried out by some random Rommies flying around in a ship and feeling trigger-happy, then the Romulan government may truly not have had any info about them.
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Old June 5 2014, 01:21 PM   #43
Robert Comsol
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Again, as I said we have no way of knowing the circumstances after the Ent-C returned to the battle. All we have is Sela's account, which (according to her) happened when she was a little girl. And I wouldn't trust Sela as far as I could throw her.
Yes, we don't know the exact circumstances but according to Ron Moore's "Redemption" audio commentary it's pretty obvious that Sela's account was intended by the producers to be genuine and accurate.

(I mean, seriously, in another TOS thread Timo just wondered if we should take Vina's statements about the Talosians as accurate. There appears to be a general growing tendency to double-guess every protagonist's statement. We have no evidence whatsoever, that the Star Trek creators intended such and unnecessary ambiguity. To claim otherwise would be an extraordinary claim that would require extraordinary evidence, IMHO)

But even if we don't see every incident mentioned in dialogue visualized on screen, shouldn't we assume that the behaviour of certain protagonists would match what we've learned from previous onscreen depictions to arrive at palatable rationalizations?

In this particular case I'm unable to visualize an incompetent and bumbling Romulan intelligence. Whether breaking Starfleet Code 2 or knowing the senior officers of the Enterprise in TOS was a testament to their efficient intelligence is unknown, but what we learned from TNG and beyond was that the Romulans do have an efficient intelligence and I'm certain it didn't just come into being overnight.


As for the Sela character backstory I still think it's one of the most interesting Star Trek riddles.
  • How did Sela know that her mother Tasha had been sent by Picard from the future? Did Tasha tell her when Sela was 4 years old but why?
  • Is that something Sela learned from her father after Tasha had been caught? Then how did her father knew and why didn't he hand Tasha over to the Tal Shiar?
Assuming the latter case is correct, then Sela must have been traumatized: Instead of being turned over to the Tal Shiar, Tasha somehow got executed to have a fast and quick death (hopefully). Theoretically little Sela should have turned her father in, too, for high treason but that would have left that little "bastard" girl orphaned with no more daddy to care for and protect her.
I'm not a psychologist but I think that's the "recipe" for a disturbed and twisted character growing up among the Romulans.

In her particular case, of course, it was mommy's action that wreaked havoc with what 4 year old Sela considered a perfect childhood. Sela later puts all the blame on her mother but somehow she knows that's not really appropriate. And worse for her - Picard seems to be every moment a step ahead of her already understanding while she is still in denial. Again, one of the greatest TNG scenes - IMHO - and top notch acting by Densise Crosby. (and , of course, Patrick Stewart, too)

Bob
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Old June 5 2014, 05:25 PM   #44
Dukhat
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
How did Sela know that her mother Tasha had been sent by Picard from the future? Did Tasha tell her when Sela was 4 years old but why?
Well, we can make a good assumption based on the visual evidence: Sela's bright blonde hair. I'm guessing that blonde-haired Romulans are a rarity, perhaps even non-existent. So perhaps 4-year-old Sela was being made fun of by other kids and asked her mother about her origins. Tasha told her because, well, who's going to believe a 4-year-old's tall tale about her mother coming from the future?

Is that something Sela learned from her father after Tasha had been caught? Then how did her father knew and why didn't he hand Tasha over to the Tal Shiar?
IIRC, Sela never mentioned that her father knew Tasha was from the future. So I'm assuming he never knew, which would explain why Tasha was simply taken as a consort and not interrogated by the Romulans.

Sela later puts all the blame on her mother but somehow she knows that's not really appropriate. And worse for her - Picard seems to be every moment a step ahead of her already understanding while she is still in denial.
Why would she think it's not appropriate? In denial of what? For all intents and purposes, she hates her mother for betraying her father and hates Picard based on a false pretense that Picard never bothered to clarify to her. I don't see it as any more cut-and-dried than that.
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Old June 5 2014, 08:18 PM   #45
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

In regard to the ot, I don't think Nemesis would have been worse if Sela was the main antagonist. May not have been better, but it's not really like it could have been much worse, Shitzon was not a valuable addition to Star Trek. Sela, also not really a valuable addition, at least existed.

I think it would have been a better plot to find out in Nemesis at the end that Sela was Tasha surgically altered and mentally tampered with to think she is her own daughter.
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