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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 4 2014, 05:38 PM   #76
F. King Daniel
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Khan planned to execute the entire TOS bridge crew one by one in "Space Seed", by suffocation, while forcing the others to watch. How on Earth is he not a murderous monster? This wasn't a bluff, he was actually going through with it and thought Kirk dead.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure Spock's line in ID about Khan's plan to eradicate everyone not considered genetically superior was a based on Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels, where Khan's final solution was a modified version of strep which would have killed everyone on Earth who wasn't genetically engineered. His plan was foiled and Khan and his people exiled.
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Old June 7 2014, 10:19 AM   #77
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Having seen Taxi Driver last night, I woke up with a gripe against the idea of an evil man who is just evil, and once again unhappy about Khan's treatment.

Space Seed is overflowing with examples of Khan's evilness and ruthlessness, and one can cite them to no end, but it did go out of its way to add ambiguity to his character. It was everywhere, it was in the undertones, it was in the crew's impression of him from history books. And they did leave him on Ceti Alpha V optimistic and intrigued about the future of the colony – which shows that even the crew of the Enterprise didn't feel he and his crew were irredeemably evil.

And we're in the Star Trek universe, where any kind of being was able to become part of the family, regardless of their strength, intellect, or values, so it is regrettable that, outside of DS9, any genetically-enhanced person was deemed unworthy to be a part of the civilisation. I would imagine it would have found a way for better inclusion of people with chronic lack of empathy for others, which could have worked even for Khan. TWOK and STID threw out any ambiguity and wasted his character potential to make him more than the token evil guy (I saw TWOK before Space Seed, so saying it ruined Khan for me would be a very peculiar statement I couldn't make... so I'd make it )

STID even played into it, by bringing his pain, by making him mistreated by Marcus, and by all that, and in the end it went nowhere. Thankfully, he's alive and well, so I guess this opportunity isn't completely lost, but chances are, he'll be as evil if he returns. We all know that. (Besides, adding anything positive to him now, after he murdered all those people in SF would be a very challenging task.)

Then again, I was generally underwhelmed by the final sequence. For example, I would have liked if McCoy broke the news of what happened in SF to Kirk when he woke up in his bed – with his fitting emotional reaction. So maybe it is a lot of small things that make me generally biased against everything in it, including Khan's fate, which did make sense.


--

As for the genocide line, while seemingly unfitting, I do think that "ethnic cleansing" is an unfortunate term that began as euphemism to belittle what was going on, so I wouldn't be surprised if in the future it is replaced with "genocide" even when it doesn't involve literally killing people – maybe Khan didn't commit that kind of atrocity, but he chased everyone who he found less than superior in ways that would have ultimately lead to their demise – perhaps killed by the other tyrants. So it is quite possible that he committed no massacres, but was committing mass genocide by sending people to placed where someone else would commit a massacre, or where they would have little chance of surviving. Wait, isn't that already genocide?

Besides, he could have just forbidden these people from having children. That is genocide under the current definition, and it is not a massacre. Does Space Seed say anything about Khan allowing everyone to have children under his rule? No? Well, Spock's statement does not contradict anything then.

And that makes him a Hitler too.
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Old June 7 2014, 03:25 PM   #78
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

YellowSubmarine wrote:
Does Space Seed say anything about Khan allowing everyone to have children under his rule? No? Well, Spock's statement does not contradict anything then.
One could also write:

"Does Space Seed say anything about what Khan did in the process of seizing power? No? Well, Spock's statement does not contradict anything then."
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Old June 17 2014, 03:11 AM   #79
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
ThankQ wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I don't see how they could reboot "City..." because then, any Abramsverse crew who travelled to the 30's would run into the ones from the prime timeline.
No, they never existed to go back to the '30s.
Yes, they did.

Remember, the divergence only happens in 2233. Any time before that, there is only one timeline, not two.

Time travelers from either the prime or Abrams timelines can travel back to any point prior to 2233, and while they're doing that, they can even meet. They're simply two possible futures. Either one is equally real.
No, that's not how alternate timelines work. The divergent point was in 2233 but the fact that an alternate timeline was created makes them both separate from each other in all aspects. Therefore while both timelines' pasts would be identical up to 2233, they're still completely separate and they don't overlap. If they did, all that prime-Spock would have to do to go home is slingshot around a sun to 1930, go to Earth, wait for his younger self and co. to show up and then go back to through the Guardian with them and then take a second hop back to his own future.
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Old June 17 2014, 09:04 AM   #80
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

ClassicTrekkie wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
ThankQ wrote: View Post

No, they never existed to go back to the '30s.
Yes, they did.

Remember, the divergence only happens in 2233. Any time before that, there is only one timeline, not two.

Time travelers from either the prime or Abrams timelines can travel back to any point prior to 2233, and while they're doing that, they can even meet. They're simply two possible futures. Either one is equally real.
No, that's not how alternate timelines work. The divergent point was in 2233 but the fact that an alternate timeline was created makes them both separate from each other in all aspects. Therefore while both timelines' pasts would be identical up to 2233, they're still completely separate and they don't overlap.
Come on, we're talking about ever-changing made up science in a fantasy world. In TNG: "Time Squared", when the timeline changed the duplicate Picard and shuttlecraft faded away. In ENT: "The Expanse" there was a change in the 22nd century which somehow took time to affect the 31st, despite instantaneous effects shown before. Taking Archer out of his timeline in "Shockwave" instantly destroys the future, yet when Daniels does it in "Azati Prime" and "Zero Hour" it's no biggie. Then there's Spock beaming Captain Christopher into himself in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" which doesn't make a whole lot of sense at all.

I think it's fair to say, with the word of god and diagrams on the IDW and STO web sites, and as described in novels, that a shared past is the way time travel is working for the moment.

(Christopher's novel DTI: Watching the Clock does a masterful job of weaving most of Trek's contradictory time travels into one massively complicated but seemingly consistent system. It's a good read, too.)
If they did, all that prime-Spock would have to do to go home is slingshot around a sun to 1930, go to Earth, wait for his younger self and co. to show up and then go back to through the Guardian with them and then take a second hop back to his own future.
Who says he can't? Spock doesn't want to go back to his future. He spells it out in ST'09 - he feels responsible for the destruction of Vulcan and has dedicated the rest of his life to helping them rebuild. "KthanxbyeLLAP!" isn't in his nature.
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Old June 17 2014, 10:35 AM   #81
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

ClassicTrekkie wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
ThankQ wrote: View Post

No, they never existed to go back to the '30s.
Yes, they did.

Remember, the divergence only happens in 2233. Any time before that, there is only one timeline, not two.

Time travelers from either the prime or Abrams timelines can travel back to any point prior to 2233, and while they're doing that, they can even meet. They're simply two possible futures. Either one is equally real.
No, that's not how alternate timelines work. The divergent point was in 2233 but the fact that an alternate timeline was created makes them both separate from each other in all aspects. Therefore while both timelines' pasts would be identical up to 2233, they're still completely separate and they don't overlap. If they did, all that prime-Spock would have to do to go home is slingshot around a sun to 1930, go to Earth, wait for his younger self and co. to show up and then go back to through the Guardian with them and then take a second hop back to his own future.

Last edited by Khan 2.0; June 17 2014 at 10:49 PM.
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Old June 17 2014, 04:22 PM   #82
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

ClassicTrekkie wrote: View Post
The divergent point was in 2233 but the fact that an alternate timeline was created makes them both separate from each other in all aspects. Therefore while both timelines' pasts would be identical up to 2233, they're still completely separate and they don't overlap
Incorrect on that last bit. Prior to 2233, there ARE no "both timelines". There is only ONE timeline before that. 2233 is the divergence - the point where one timeline becomes two. That's how it works.
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Old June 17 2014, 04:52 PM   #83
ClassicTrekkie
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
ClassicTrekkie wrote: View Post
The divergent point was in 2233 but the fact that an alternate timeline was created makes them both separate from each other in all aspects. Therefore while both timelines' pasts would be identical up to 2233, they're still completely separate and they don't overlap
Incorrect on that last bit. Prior to 2233, there ARE no "both timelines". There is only ONE timeline before that. 2233 is the divergence - the point where one timeline becomes two. That's how it works.
I must respectfully disagree, based on all the quantum theory stuff that Orci was posting over on Trekmovie.com back before ST09 was coming out. On the other hand, like most things, I imagine that it works however the plot at the moment requires it to
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Old June 19 2014, 03:40 AM   #84
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

As a follow up, here's a link to Roberto Orci's explanation of how his view on alternate timelines work (as of the release of Trek 09).

http://trekmovie.com/2008/12/11/bob-...-real-science/

So, until the writers decide to pitch this in favor of something different to make a story work, there are two complete and separate timelines in regards to Prime-Trek and Nu-Trek. I would have included it in my last post, but I didn't have to time to go digging.
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