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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 23 2014, 06:03 PM   #61
BillJ
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Franklin wrote: View Post
I didn't like the genocide line, myself (it's a bit over the top for me). But as I think about it, maybe the writers used it as shorthand to tell the audience that this was one cruel dude for whom we should have absolutely no sympathy (after all, they had created some ambiguity about his plight to that point). It was the "big reveal." Khan has no redeeming features. His civility is a faade he erects when he needs something from people that suits his own ends.

Imagine Spock's line as: "Which as I understand it involves mass the subjugation to your tyranny of any beings you find less than superior." That probably more accurately describes Khan and his goal given what is known about him on screen, but it's not as dramatic. Genocidal trumps tyrannical.
Which absolutely makes sense from a dramatic standpoint.

In universe, I just don't think Augments and basic humans could co-exist for a long period of time. Eventually one would become the dominant species and the other one would die out.
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Old May 25 2014, 11:54 PM   #62
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

I think "Kahn won't hesitate to kill your entire crew" is absolutely accurate. Yes, Khan doesn't rush in killing everyone in sight, because they are useful resources for information, support, labor.... But, if you give him a reason (IE: Don't conform and do exactly as you're told to do) "he won't hesitate to kill you" (Or anyone else fitting this criteria)
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Old May 27 2014, 03:57 AM   #63
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

BillJ wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
I didn't like the genocide line, myself (it's a bit over the top for me). But as I think about it, maybe the writers used it as shorthand to tell the audience that this was one cruel dude for whom we should have absolutely no sympathy (after all, they had created some ambiguity about his plight to that point). It was the "big reveal." Khan has no redeeming features. His civility is a faade he erects when he needs something from people that suits his own ends.

Imagine Spock's line as: "Which as I understand it involves mass the subjugation to your tyranny of any beings you find less than superior." That probably more accurately describes Khan and his goal given what is known about him on screen, but it's not as dramatic. Genocidal trumps tyrannical.
Which absolutely makes sense from a dramatic standpoint.

In universe, I just don't think Augments and basic humans could co-exist for a long period of time. Eventually one would become the dominant species and the other one would die out.
"Space Seed" was written during a time when people remembered the reign of Hitler and his genocide of Jews. Naturally, a comparison to Hitler and his actions told the audience that Khan was evil, deadly and power mad.
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Old May 28 2014, 05:34 PM   #64
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Sindatur wrote: View Post
But, if you give him a reason (IE: Don't conform and do exactly as you're told to do) "he won't hesitate to kill you" (Or anyone else fitting this criteria)
Like that one time in Space Seed when he was telling the crew of the Enterprise to join him or Kirk would die? First he demanded that Spock join him in order to spare Kirk, and when that didn't work, he sweetened the deal to ANYONE joining him. Does he kill every single one of the crew after everyone doesn't do what he tells them? No. Heck, his plan for the Enterprise was to use it to rule a populated world, not destroy it.

Khan: My vessel was useless. I need you and yours to select a colony planet, one with a population willing to be led by us.
McCoy: To be conquered by you... a starship would make that most simple, wouldn't it?

Doesn't sound like he wants to enact genocide to me.
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Old May 28 2014, 05:53 PM   #65
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
"Space Seed" was written during a time when people remembered the reign of Hitler and his genocide of Jews. Naturally, a comparison to Hitler and his actions told the audience that Khan was evil, deadly and power mad.
Hitler massacred untold number of people during his reign. Khan didn't. Hitler waged war against other countries during his reign. Khan didn't. Hitler is despised amongst the people of Earth, where as Khan was admired and somewhat respected.

Why is everyone so eager to jump on the "Khan was always evil and genocidal" when the entire point of his character in Space Seed was supposed to be the exact opposite? The whole reason why the situation escalated so drastically was that Khan and Kirk did not understand each other at all. Khan thought that Kirk and his crew were inferior to the point that he could intimidate them into following him, and Kirk assuming that he could contain Khan. Did it all end in bloodshed? No. No one died and Kirk and Khan actually came to an understanding. Both sides got what they wanted in the end and we're left to ponder if Kirk's decision for letting Khan build his empire was the right one. Thanks to TWOK, we'll never know because Ceti Alpha V was turned into a barren wasteland. And thanks to STID, we'll never know because Khan is now strictly an irredeemable bad guy who cannot be bargained with. That sucks.
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Old May 28 2014, 06:46 PM   #66
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

I'm 100% with Jeyl on this. I'm really puzzled why some people don't get this. I have lost count of how many times Jeyl posted the exact dialogue quotes about how Khan was considered the best of tyrants, meaning that it absolutely WASN'T a Hitler-esque terror regime.

Khan did in fact not hesitate to remove those who stood in the way of his plans, BUT he wasn't all about vengeance, terror and genocide.
That came ONLY after his 15 year exile on Ceti Alpha, which changed his character. And even in TWOK, it was never about genocide. He considered himself superior, but that was it.
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Old May 28 2014, 06:58 PM   #67
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I'm 100% with Jeyl on this. I'm really puzzled why some people don't get this. I have lost count of how many times Jeyl posted the exact dialogue quotes about how Khan was considered the best of tyrants, meaning that it absolutely WASN'T a Hitler-esque terror regime.
Because the dialogue has to be taken with a grain of salt based on Spock's "fragmentary" records line, the fact that to control a quarter of the planet one would have to be ruthless to some degree and how we see him treat the crew of the Enterprise.

Kirk and Scott's basis for their opinion of Khan likely comes from literature of their time that was based on those same fragmentary records Spock mentions. I bet if you asked Kirk and Scott if they admired Khan after the incident, they would say "no".

If we take dialogue at face value then Vulcans never lie...
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Old May 28 2014, 09:19 PM   #68
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I don't see how they could reboot "City..." because then, any Abramsverse crew who travelled to the 30's would run into the ones from the prime timeline.
No, they never existed to go back to the '30s.
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Old May 28 2014, 09:24 PM   #69
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

ThankQ wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I don't see how they could reboot "City..." because then, any Abramsverse crew who travelled to the 30's would run into the ones from the prime timeline.
No, they never existed to go back to the '30s.
Yes, they did.

Remember, the divergence only happens in 2233. Any time before that, there is only one timeline, not two.

Time travelers from either the prime or Abrams timelines can travel back to any point prior to 2233, and while they're doing that, they can even meet. They're simply two possible futures. Either one is equally real.
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Old May 29 2014, 01:13 AM   #70
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

BillJ wrote: View Post
Because the dialogue has to be taken with a grain of salt based on Spock's "fragmentary" records line, the fact that to control a quarter of the planet one would have to be ruthless to some degree and how we see him treat the crew of the Enterprise.
Oh, cripes. Here comes my infamous quoting machine again.
SPOCK: However, scanners make out a name. SS Botany Bay.
KIRK: Then you can check the registry.
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
*Later*
SPOCK: A strange, violent period in your history. I find no record what so ever of an SS Botany Bay.
Sounds more like ship records than actual historical records given how whenever a character talks about Earth history, they seem to know exactly what transpired.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.
MCCOY: Oh, now wait a minute. Not our attempt, Mister Spock. A group of ambitious scientists. I'm sure you know the type. Devoted to logic, completely unemotional-
KIRK: An improved breed of human. That's what the Eugenics War was all about.
SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence.
SPOCK: In 1992, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves.
This one is my favorite because it pinpoints exactly where the fragmentation occurred and why.
SPOCK: I have collected some names and made some counts. By my estimate, there were some eighty or ninety of these young supermen unaccounted for when they were finally defeated.
KIRK: That fact isn't in the history texts.
There's a mystery here for certain, but it doesn't involve Khan's rule of Earth. That is clearly well documented judging by how familiar the characters are with Khan already. So what answers does Kirk seek?
KIRK: What was the exact date of your lift off? We know it was sometime in the early 1990s, but
KHAN: I find myself growing fatigued, Doctor. May we continue this questioning at some other time?
KIRK: The facts I need, Mister Khan, will take very little time. For example, the nature of your expedition.
KIRK: You fled. Why? Were you afraid?
KHAN: I've never been afraid.
KIRK: But you left at the very time mankind needed courage.
KIRK: I'd like those answers now. First, the purpose of your star flight.
And what is the first question Marla McGivers asks Khan?
MARLA: I'd like some historical information about your ship, its purpose and
There you have it. The only bit of history involving Khan that isn't reliable involves how he and his followers fled Earth in a sleeper ship. That's the only mystery that the crew can't explain, and it's the only thing Kirk wanted to have answered. So no, I won't apply the "fragmented records" line to exonerate STID's stupid attempt at solidifying Khan as just a bad guy who wants to kill people because that was not the point of Space Seed's story.
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Old May 29 2014, 01:16 AM   #71
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Jeyl wrote: View Post
...
You're free to interpret it any way you like.
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Old May 29 2014, 10:12 AM   #72
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Oh my...
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Old June 1 2014, 09:19 PM   #73
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Jeyl wrote:
That line from TNG was disingenuous.
For no reason at all, I presume? Picard doesn't seem like he's in a disingenuous moment there. And I'm curious: are the TOS characters equally allowed to be "disingenuous", or just Picard?
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Old June 1 2014, 11:39 PM   #74
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote:
That line from TNG was disingenuous.
For no reason at all, I presume? Picard doesn't seem like he's in a disingenuous moment there. And I'm curious: are the TOS characters equally allowed to be "disingenuous", or just Picard?
The only reason it is disingenuous is because it disagrees with her read of Khan.
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Old June 4 2014, 04:36 PM   #75
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

BillJ wrote: View Post
The only reason it is disingenuous is because it disagrees with her read of Khan.
Since Star Trek aired 27 years after World War II, there's really no excuse why there couldn't have been a Khan/Hitler comparison if that was the direction they wanted to take his character. It wasn't. This whole situation feels like everyone is picking sides of the writer who probably never watched Space Seed over the writer who wrote it. Just because TNG says Khan is comparable to Hitler, that's how he should be treated.
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