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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 21 2014, 05:32 PM   #31
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Khan wasn't going to stop with only 72 followers. His ultimate goal was to create an entire race of genetically engineered augments like him. He wanted to eliminate everyone who wasn't one of his kind, and make the entire human race 'perfect'.

Genocide (of all who weren't engineered) would be in perfect keeping with Khan's kind.

Besides, when Spock mentioned genocide, Khan didn't correct him, you know...
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Old May 21 2014, 05:33 PM   #32
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Franklin wrote: View Post

Yeah. Could be. The line threw me for a loop when I first heard it, and I've always had trouble with it since, because in "Space Seed" they said Khan was the most dangerous of the tyrants, but there were also no massacres under his rule, and he attacked only if he was attacked first.
I take Spock's analysis with a huge grain of salt since even he says that records from the period were fragmentary. Surely the nations he ruled didn't just roll over without a shot fired? And even in the best of times, there are always people who are dissatisfied with government.


He was never associated with genocide. It's a rather jarring inconsistency for Spock to say that, and I don't know where it could've come from. My guess is the writers thought it would be the best way to convey just how evil Khan was. Still, it was an odd characterization compared to what had been said about him, before.
It could be that Spock is playing to his ego here? It could be that this new Khan's motivations have been colored by what happened during "The Augments" trilogy from Enterprise? Perhaps Spock's analysis is colored by those events? Perhaps he planned to raid Cold Station 12 and bring thousands of Augments to life to accelerate the process of their ascension as the dominate species on Earth?

Just spitting into the wind here...
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Old May 21 2014, 05:54 PM   #33
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

I don't know. It just seemed odd that Khan would want to systematically kill all inferior people rather than rule them, then on top of that, create an entire race of augments like him (more potential rivals of equal power).

After all, Khan was fighting and presumably killing fellow augments to gain power over the "inferior" beings on Earth during the 1990s. C'mon guys! You remember. It was less than twenty years ago, for cryin' out loud.

Honestly, if his goal was to wipe out ordinary people and create a race of thousands of superior beings with all the accompanying superior egos and ambitions, that seems to be a recipe for creating competing interests, and therefore chaos and wars for leadership, not pax Romana.
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Old May 21 2014, 06:01 PM   #34
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Franklin wrote: View Post
I don't know. It just seemed odd that Khan would want to systematically kill all inferior people rather than rule them, then on top of that, create an entire race of augments like him (more potential rivals of equal power).

After all, Khan was fighting and presumably killing fellow augments to gain power over the "inferior" beings on Earth during the 1990s. C'mon guys! You remember. It was less than twenty years ago, for cryin' out loud.

Honestly, if his goal was to wipe out ordinary people and create a race of thousands of superior beings with all the accompanying superior egos and ambitions, that seems to be a recipe for creating competing interests, and therefore chaos and wars for leadership, not pax Romana.
But the numbers would suggest that goal would always be unattainable. There are billions of humans vs. a few super-humans. He controlled a quarter of the Earth, yet was still eventually run off the planet.
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Old May 21 2014, 06:09 PM   #35
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

^ Wasn't there a novel where Khan tried to create a super-virus that would kill all non-augments?
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Old May 21 2014, 06:11 PM   #36
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Wasn't there a novel where Khan tried to create a super-virus that would kill all non-augments?
I can't remember exactly how Morningstar worked from Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars books? But he did have a doomsday weapon.
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Old May 21 2014, 08:20 PM   #37
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

BillJ wrote: View Post
I take Spock's analysis with a huge grain of salt since even he says that records from the period were fragmentary. Surely the nations he ruled didn't just roll over without a shot fired? And even in the best of times, there are always people who are dissatisfied with government.
Records being fragmented could have more to do with why there are no records of Khan's trip on the Botany Bay and not his history of ruling Earth. After all, when the crew discuss Khan's history, Scotty himself refers to him as though he knows his history well.
Scotty: I must confess gentlemen, I've always had a sneaking admiration for this one.
And while you're right that there would certainly be some fighting going on in order to seize power, Khan was clearly the only super tyrant one who stopped the fighting at that point. The bit about whole societies being bombed out of existence might have more to do with the super tyrants fighting amongst themselves than Khan trying to gain power. After all, why would he bomb people when his desire was to rule over them? Despite how much he brags about being superior to the crew of the Enterprise, he's very open to them joining his ranks with the promise to treat them all well.

Khan was not someone who wanted everyone to be as perfect as he was. He wanted to be the perfect ruler. He fled Earth because all of Earth had rejected him and his followers, so he ventured into space to find a new world where his people could begin again without the inferior humans to get in the way. It's his last words in the episode!
Khan: And I've gotten something else that I've wanted. A world to win, an empire to build.
This is why the Spock Prime scene in STID was a mistake, because when you have the original Spock talking about his experiences, he isn't talking about Benedict's Khan, he's talking about Ricardo's Khan, and that Khan is nothing like the one Spock Prime is describing. Deadliest enemy the Enterprise has ever faced? In TWOK maybe, but in Space Seed there wasn't even a red shirt casualty. Would not hesitate to kill every last one of the crew? Pspspsps. As I've said many, many times already. Khan does worse than hesitate. He gloats.
Khan: I deprive your ship of power and when I swing around I mean to deprive you of your life. But I wanted you to know first who it was who had beaten you!
And when NuSpock mentions the genocide, he is obviously referring to what Spock Prime told him off screen so we are supposed to accept this as fact since Spock does not bluff.

So yeah. They altered Khan, both old and new just so they could have a bad guy to fit with the "Bad guy threatens Earth" cliché that has been the go to formula since Nemesis.
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Old May 21 2014, 09:27 PM   #38
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

There is one question that begs to be answered if Khan's purpose truly was the mass genocide of all beings he deemed less superior: Why did he make the "inferior" Marla McGivers his wife? Why would he deem her a suitable companion for him while he and his fellow augments apparently want to wipe out the entire population of inferior people like her? Every night until she died, he went to bed with an inferior being he apparently loved.
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Old May 22 2014, 12:31 AM   #39
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Franklin wrote:
He was never associated with genocide. It's a rather jarring inconsistency for Spock to say that, and I don't know where it could've come from.
One guess:

"What if one of those lives I save down there is a child who grows up to be the next Adolf Hitler or Khan Singh?"

- Jean-Luc Picard, A Matter of Time ( TNG S5 )

Jeyl wrote:
This is why the Spock Prime scene in STID was a mistake, because when you have the original Spock talking about his experiences, he isn't talking about Benedict's Khan, he's talking about Ricardo's Khan, and that Khan is nothing like the one Spock Prime is describing. Deadliest enemy the Enterprise has ever faced? In TWOK maybe
And Spock Prime was there for TWOK, so that's legitimately a part of what he's talking about. And it's obviously being referred to there, given the "how did you beat him" angle.

Jeyl wrote:
but in Space Seed there wasn't even a red shirt casualty. Would not hesitate to kill every last one of the crew? Pspspsps.
The point was that he was willing to kill the crew members to get what he wanted, that was made clear. But you're right - he might have gloated before the genocidal behavior, so it wouldn't count.

BillJ wrote:
It could be that this new Khan's motivations have been colored by what happened during "The Augments" trilogy from Enterprise?
How would that affect Abrams Khan any more than Prime Khan?
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Old May 22 2014, 11:40 AM   #40
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Set Harth wrote: View Post
"What if one of those lives I save down there is a child who grows up to be the next Adolf Hitler or Khan Singh?"
That line from TNG was disingenuous. He was not a Hitler who massacred people! I seriously doubt that if he really was a genocidal mad man that Scotty would openly admire the individual. The only thing that Spock could come up with to show how bad of a person he is was to say he was a ruthless dictator who took away limited his people's freedoms. No killing, no wars, just a lot of restrictions. If Khan was everything that post-TWOK material makes him out to be, than the conversation should have gone like this.
Scotty: There were no massacres under his rule.
Spock: I'm afraid you are incorrect Mr. Scott. It was well known especially for Khan that his purpose was to commit mass genocide on anyone he thought was inferior.
Kirk: Mr. Scott, I'm surprised at you. How could you admire a man who was a cold blooded war criminal that wanted to murder every human who wasn't as superior as he was? He was practically Hitler!
Instead of using Space Seed as a basis for Khan's character, everyone resorts to the revenge seeking Khan from the second movie, and even in STID they don't even get that right. Khan being the bad guy in TWOK was the result of 15 years of feeling abandoned on a world that turned it into an inhospitable nightmare where he was powerless to stop the deaths of many of his loyal followers, including his own wife. That was tangible motivation. This NuKhan's motivation all stems from incorrect assumptions.
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Old May 22 2014, 12:12 PM   #41
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Jeyl wrote: View Post
He was not a Hitler who massacred people!
Then why mention him in the same breath as Hitler?

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Khan being the bad guy in TWOK was the result of 15 years of feeling abandoned on a world that turned it into an inhospitable nightmare where he was powerless to stop the deaths of many of his loyal followers, including his own wife. That was tangible motivation. This NuKhan's motivation all stems from incorrect assumptions.
NuKhan was also powerless to stop the deaths of his followers, or so he had thought. It's the same motivation.

You can't really use Ceti Alpha V as an excuse to throw out what we learned about Khan's character just from Space Seed alone. He wasn't a nice guy. Besides, in TWOK he killed people who had had nothing whatsoever to do with his exile.
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Old May 22 2014, 12:23 PM   #42
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
He was not a Hitler who massacred people!
Then why mention him in the same breath as Hitler?
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
"What if one of those lives I save down there is a child who grows up to be the next Adolf Hitler or Khan Singh?"
That line from TNG was disingenuous.
There.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Khan being the bad guy in TWOK was the result of 15 years of feeling abandoned on a world that turned it into an inhospitable nightmare where he was powerless to stop the deaths of many of his loyal followers, including his own wife. That was tangible motivation. This NuKhan's motivation all stems from incorrect assumptions.
NuKhan was also powerless to stop the deaths of his followers, or so he had thought. It's the same motivation.

You can't really use Ceti Alpha V as an excuse to throw out what we learned about Khan's character just from Space Seed alone. He wasn't a nice guy. Besides, in TWOK he killed people who had had nothing whatsoever to do with his exile.
Jeyl wrote: View Post
I seriously doubt that if he really was a genocidal mad man that Scotty would openly admire the individual. The only thing that Spock could come up with to show how bad of a person he is was to say he was a ruthless dictator who took away limited his people's freedoms. No killing, no wars, just a lot of restrictions. If Khan was everything that post-TWOK material makes him out to be, than the conversation should have gone like this.
Scotty: There were no massacres under his rule.
Spock: I'm afraid you are incorrect Mr. Scott. It was well known especially for Khan that his purpose was to commit mass genocide on anyone he thought was inferior.
Kirk: Mr. Scott, I'm surprised at you. How could you admire a man who was a cold blooded war criminal that wanted to murder every human who wasn't as superior as he was? He was practically Hitler!
Instead of using Space Seed as a basis for Khan's character, everyone resorts to the revenge seeking Khan from the second movie, and even in STID they don't even get that right.
There again.
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Old May 22 2014, 12:59 PM   #43
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Space Seed wrote:
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
Every other statement made by the crew has to be evaluated with this in mind.

Khan would've had no qualms slitting McCoy's throat nor would he have had any issue with executing Kirk and the rest of the bridge crew to get his way. Dictators usually use random fear and terror inflicted on the populace to maintain control. I simply don't see Khan as being any different and I don't see anything in his actions in "Space Seed" and The Wrath of Khan to contradict this evaluation. I also have no doubt that humanity as Kirk and Spock knew it in the 23rd century would eventually perish to make way for Khan's new breed.
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Old May 22 2014, 02:16 PM   #44
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

The only surviving book from the Eugenics Wars:

Khan by Khan: My Four Years as a Misunderstood Dictator
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Old May 22 2014, 02:34 PM   #45
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Re: Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

While Khan certainly was more of a villain than he was "misunderstood" I do agree he was shown as more of a "supervillain" in STID than previously. Probably an unfortunate by-product of the weird myth that has developed around Khan that he is Kirk's Joker or Moriarty which certainly wasn't the intention in Space Seed or even TWOK.
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