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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 23 2014, 08:44 PM   #91
Franklin
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

I never got my hands on the novel adaptation of STID. How was Khan's line about cutting off the Enterprise's life support delivered there?

And yes, we really don't know how many torpedo tubes the TOS Enterprise had. As I posted above, I counted 96 torpedoes in the Enterprise's inventory from a TUC screencap. Ninety-six torpedoes seems like a lot for only two tubes. Seems like a lot for a ship built only for exploration, too.
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Old May 23 2014, 08:46 PM   #92
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
72 torpedo tubes
18 tubes, 4 torpedoes each, 9 each side.

Unless someone analysed the screencap and counted 72 tubes, I think the hull showed a lot fewer than that along it.
Pardon the double post, but yes. I think the idea of 72 tubes comes more from suppositions based on the dialog than from any visual evidence that there was one tube for each torpedo.
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Old May 23 2014, 08:46 PM   #93
Nerys Myk
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
If I was writing a story, I would never have 72 MacGuffins in it.
Wouldn't it count as one MacGuffin?
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Old May 23 2014, 09:03 PM   #94
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

YARN wrote: View Post
What is a ship armed to the teeth with torpedo tubes good for?
Satellite/probe deployment, surveillance equipment deployment, sensor buoy deployment, mine-sweeping, mine-laying, convoy escort, planetary defense, etc. It makes no difference if the ship has 1 torpedo tube or 300, it's what those tubes are used for that makes the difference.

For the record, it is far from certain that the Enterprise actually has 72 torpedo tubes. We only actually see about four of them open, and the interior view of the weapons bay shows no more than about 20 on either side of the ship.

What something is, has a lot to do with "what it's good for," because "what it's good for" provides a clue not only about how people intend to use it, but also how people will be likely to use it in the future even if they have no present intention
That's the funny thing about Star Trek: the Enterprise is intended to be used to PREVENT wars from starting in the first place, which Kirk and Spock spent a breathtaking amount of time doing. A lot of the times that means firing weapons at somebody who is acting way too aggressively, but even then the intent is usually to neutralize the aggressor so that diplomacy can resume. It's a very rare (and very TERRIFYING) adversary for whom diplomacy is not even an option.

For the record: what happened when the Enterprise was sent to use those torpedo tubes on a premptive military mission whose goal was NOT to prevent the escalation of hostilities? It's chief engineer resigned and the Captain disobeyed his orders anyway. At it's face, this suggests that Starfleet's basic mission statement precludes the possibility of belligerent action (it might not even be LEGAL for them to do so).
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Old May 23 2014, 09:06 PM   #95
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And Marcus never grew suspicious when Khan said "we'll build exactly 72 torpedoes".
Of course he did. That's probably how Khan got caught.
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Old May 23 2014, 09:07 PM   #96
JarodRussell
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And Marcus never grew suspicious when Khan said "we'll build exactly 72 torpedoes".
Of course he did. That's probably how Khan got caught.
That wasn't so super of Khan.
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Old May 23 2014, 09:11 PM   #97
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And Marcus never grew suspicious when Khan said "we'll build exactly 72 torpedoes".
Of course he did. That's probably how Khan got caught.
That wasn't so super of Khan.
Don't tell Khan that. He'll come at you with FULL POWAAA DAMN YOU!
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Old May 23 2014, 09:11 PM   #98
Nerys Myk
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And Marcus never grew suspicious when Khan said "we'll build exactly 72 torpedoes".
Of course he did. That's probably how Khan got caught.
That wasn't so super of Khan.
Do we know they built only 72 torpedoes?
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Old May 23 2014, 09:24 PM   #99
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Do we know they built only 72 torpedoes?
We see at least one more torpedo in Section 31's London HQ.
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Old May 23 2014, 09:48 PM   #100
YARN
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure we see the launchers being unloaded from the shuttles along with the torpedoes themselves.
How sure are you? Proof?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Even if I'm wrong, Scotty's protest was about how the weapons were being used, not that the ship was heavily armed.
Scotty started protesting before he even knew what the mission was. His objection "I thought we were explorers" was tied to his objection to the mere existence of these torpedoes on this ship.

Seeing as how the primary hull is covered with phaser turrets and that the secondary hull is dotted with torpedo tubes, you'd think he'd catch a clue.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The TOS Enterprise supposedly had the ability to raze an entire world, after all.
Well, we knew that the ship was powerful enough to destroy species and civilizations. She was powerful enough to be a life killer, but not a planet killer (like the Doomsday Machine).

Moreover, in TOS the idea was that humanity was simply now so powerful where even an exploration ship had this sort of capability. But in TOS we only see phasers and torpedoes ever come from but one place, suggesting that the majority of the mass/structure of the ship is dedicated to other purposes.

In nuTrek the Enterprise is bristling with turrets and torpedo tubes. A good deal of her surface are is pointed out to the audience to be weapons-oriented.

Beyond this, because this is fiction, we have to consider the visual grammar and tropes being used. To show the side of a ship covered with ports evokes images of fighting ships. All those phaser turrets are reminiscent of battle ships, machine gun turrets on bombers, and so on. The visual message is clear, she's a war machine.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
This whole "72 launchers is too many!!!1!" thing is basically assuming two (from classic Enterprises) is the "correct" number.
Two or one was always sufficient for the old ship. It seems the new ship has... ...issues.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I always said if the TOS or classic movie Enterprises ever needed extra torpedo launchers that hatches would open on the hull exposing as many as needed.
Well, it's great that you said it, but that doesn't make it true, does it?


EDIT: It's a series of tubes...

Someone wrote:
18 tubes, 4 torpedoes each, 9 each side.

Unless someone analysed the screencap and counted 72 tubes, I think the hull showed a lot fewer than that along it.
When Sulu threatens Khan we see at least 5 tubes in a checkerboard pattern. If there are as many tubes on the other side, that makes ten. But this is not all the visual evidence we have. In the infographic that accompanies the line "I see your 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes," it appears that there are at least 12 tube per side and we should not forget about the torpedo tube(s?) sitting at the bottom of the neck which connects the primary hull to the secondary hull. At the very least, by a conservative count, she's 25-gunner, which is more than 12 times as many torpedo tubes as we ever saw in TOS or the TMP-era Enterprise. It could be as many as 72--at least, my screen capture is not really clear on this point.

Doesn't really matter, dialogue trumps effects work, because effects work is more subjective (e.g., we are not given a clear view of all the ports, the infographics are unclear, there are often continuity problems with SFX and on-screen dialogue--how big is a Bird of Prey?). Khan says that 72 torpedoes are in their tubes, then we must conclude that there at least are 72 tubes for torpedoes to occupy on the U.S.S. Enterprise.

Last edited by YARN; May 23 2014 at 10:47 PM.
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Old May 23 2014, 10:32 PM   #101
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

YARN wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure we see the launchers being unloaded from the shuttles along with the torpedoes themselves.
How sure are you? Proof?
Go watch the unloading scene. Let me know if you see anything that might be a launcher. If not, they were there already.
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Even if I'm wrong, Scotty's protest was about how the weapons were being used, not that the ship was heavily armed.
Scotty started protesting before he even knew what the mission was. His objection "I thought we were explorers" was tied to his objection to the mere existence of these torpedoes on this ship.
Of course Scotty knew the mission. It was him who figured out where Khan escaped to and how.
Seeing as how the primary hull is covered with phaser turrets and that the secondary hull is dotted with torpedo tubes, you'd think he'd catch a clue.
There's a huge difference between having the ability to fire a ton of torpedoes and perform an execution with them.
Well, we knew that the ship was powerful enough to destroy species and civilizations. She was powerful enough to be a life killer, but not a planet killer (like the Doomsday Machine).

Moreover, in TOS the idea was that humanity was simply now so powerful where even an exploration ship had this sort of capability. But in TOS we only see phasers and torpedoes ever come from but one place, suggesting that the majority of the mass/structure of the ship is dedicated to other purposes.

In nuTrek the Enterprise is bristling with turrets and torpedo tubes. A good deal of her surface area is not smooth or dedicated to apparent sensors, but is pointed out to the audience to be weapons-oriented.

Beyond this, because this is fiction, we have to consider the visual grammar and tropes being used. To show the side of a ship covered with ports evokes images of fighting ships. All those phaser turrets are reminiscent of battle ships, machine gun turrets on bombers, and so on. The visual message is clear, she's a war machine.
We saw weapons from one spot in TOS, but dialogue spoke of more torpedo tubes and phaser banks than they could afford to show. Come "In a Mirror, Darkly" and modern CGI, and the USS Defiant has many more weapons than we ever saw the original Enterprise use.

And aren't those phaser turrets the same as those on the classic movie Enterprise? Yup they are.
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
This whole "72 launchers is too many!!!1!" thing is basically assuming two (from classic Enterprises) is the "correct" number.
Two or one was always sufficient for the old ship. It seems the new ship has... ...issues.
Seems more like the fans who read into it with the issues...
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I always said if the TOS or classic movie Enterprises ever needed extra torpedo launchers that hatches would open on the hull exposing as many as needed.
Well, it's great that you said it, but that doesn't make it true, does it?
See my point about the Constitution-class Defiant in "In a Mirror, Darkly"
- the script needed aft-firing phasers and torpedoes, so we got them. Ditto TOS-R "This Side of Paradise", where the ship sprouted bomb bay doors to deploy satellites.
DS9's Defiant sprouted an entire shuttlebay in "The Sound of her Voice". Starship abilities hinge on what the story of the moment demands.
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Old May 23 2014, 10:46 PM   #102
Franklin
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Below is a website I found completely devoted to the torpedo bays of prime universe NCC-1701. Torp Bay 1 and Torp Bay 2 signs are seen on interior shots of the Enterprise in TWOK. But scroll down the site just over half-way, and there's a still posted from TWOK where "Torp Bay 3" and "Torp Bay 4" are also clearly visible written on the walls. The author of the site does a WTF on this because he can't reconcile where those would be on the ship with other known visual clues. But the writing is on the wall, so to speak. And, on screen. Indisputable reference to a third and fourth torpedo bay.

Link:

http://www.trekplace.com/article01.html

Combine that with the whopping 96 torpedoes counted on the Enterprise in TUC, and it makes sense to have more than just two tubes.
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Old May 23 2014, 11:19 PM   #103
YARN
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Franklin wrote: View Post
Below is a website I found completely devoted to the torpedo bays of prime universe NCC-1701. Torp Bay 1 and Torp Bay 2 signs are seen on interior shots of the Enterprise in TWOK. But scroll down the site just over half-way, and there's a still posted from TWOK where "Torp Bay 3" and "Torp Bay 4" are also clearly visible written on the walls.
NOTE: Here I am speaking of STiD as a self-contained story. If there is never again a reference to 72 torpedo tubes (verbal or visual) in the three (or four or five or however many films which will comprise the new franchise) NuTrek films, we might say that the number of torpedo tubes is much less certain than other "facts," such as, "The Enterprise travels faster than light and has transporters." Within this single story, however, the fact is that the Enterprise has 72 torpedo tubes.

As far as onscreen evidence goes, 1. On-screen dialogue (which is the strongest evidence we have--it is "in the script," it is uttered for the purpose of establish "facts" for the audience, and it is the most objective evidence available), and 2. External features (which is not to say overall size, since this is indeterminate) of models which we see used (models are relatively more stable than the infographics, and infographics and signage are generally meant to be in the background, rather than the foreground). Consequently, for example, the no-smoking sign in TWoK matters much less than the fact that we never see anyone smoke in TOS or the TMP-era movies. What matters most is that we only see two torpedo ports on the TMP-era Enterprise and that we only ever see two ports used, not four.

Even if we accept this background "on screen" evidence as "fact" (I do not - it's not really something that we're really meant to think about - it's a backround detail), then we still have to reconcile the 72-gun Enterprise against the 4 gun Enterprise.

Franklin wrote: View Post
Combine that with the whopping 96 torpedoes counted on the Enterprise in TUC, and it makes sense to have more than just two tubes.
What's more threatening and warlike - a coast guard cutter with a single gun (which has 96 projectiles it can fire) or the U.S.S. Missouri? Again, what matters most are the visual tropes that our filmmakers are tapping into. There is NO ship, but there is cultural heritage of naval stories and images of naval might--the most notable of which is having a conspicuous number of weapons.

More guns simply means you need even more internal storage for ammo (unless you're only planning on firing one broadside and then stopping, LOL). For a ship designed for a 5-year mission, is 96 torpedoes that many? If I am carrying a gun for 5 years on a deep mission, would it be surprising to find I was carrying about 100 bullets? And again, this sort of data is of the lowest order -- you're referring to technical greebles which appear in infographics and are not really meant to be attended to. People didn't have frame-by-frame capabilities to scrutinize these things when the TMP films came out. At most, you could freeze frame a fuzzy VHS tape.

Last edited by YARN; May 23 2014 at 11:38 PM.
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Old May 23 2014, 11:22 PM   #104
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

A Los Angeles class submarine carries, what, 25 torpedoes? With 2 tubes. And that was supposed to hunt down other subs. I saw Hunt of Red October, I know ALL the facts.
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Old May 24 2014, 12:51 AM   #105
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And Marcus never grew suspicious when Khan said "we'll build exactly 72 torpedoes".
It is only your assumption that he said any such thing.
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