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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 21 2014, 10:19 AM   #76
Saul
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
If I was writing a story, I would never have 72 MacGuffins in it.
That's because you have a brain.
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Old May 21 2014, 02:47 PM   #77
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

drt wrote:
My take was always that Chekov discovered the sabotage to the engines "just in time" and that Enterprise was supposed to be deeper into Klingon space when it was intended to take effect, and likely if it happened later the damage might have been more severe/irrepairable.
I don't follow any of that. The sabotage to the engines was discovered by everyone when the Enterprise was thrown out of warp. Since they were supposed to fire the torpedoes from the Neutral Zone but decided to go to Kronos instead, if anything the Enterprise was deeper in Klingon space than it was intended to be when the sabotage took effect. And the sabotage was surely timed according to Marcus' plan, but the damage would have presumably been the same no matter when it happened.
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Old May 22 2014, 06:48 PM   #78
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Their warheads were intact, but their fuel cells removed.
Not completely. They just weren't where they were expected to be.
This brings up another question I've had for a while: did no one in Section 31 question why this guy they just hired was redesigning their super-secret torpedoes to include a cryotube?
No because KHAN was the one who designed them in the first place. If anything, they should be questioning why some guy they never heard of is suddenly developing stealthy first-strike weapons.

Then again, that's the kind of organization Section Thirty One is and has always been: nobody knows what anybody else is doing, and you can actually get in serious trouble just for asking about it.

Did Khan single-handedly design and build all 72 torpedoes with no external input?
Why not? That's basically how Korolev developed the R-7.
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Old May 23 2014, 07:03 PM   #79
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

LOL, Scotty quits because all of the sudden he suspects that the Federation is losing it's mission, "I thought we were explorers."

Later on we find out that the Enterprise has at least 72 torpedo tubes along her secondary hull. She's a ship of the line, apparently.

Shouldn't it have occurred to Scotty that a ship with dozens of torpedo tubes might be a ship or war? Or was he still trying to figure out where that aft nacelle is?
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Old May 23 2014, 07:18 PM   #80
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

YARN wrote: View Post
LOL, Scotty quits because all of the sudden he suspects that the Federation is losing it's mission, "I thought we were explorers."

Later on we find out that the Enterprise has at least 72 torpedo tubes along her secondary hull. She's a ship of the line, apparently.

Shouldn't it have occurred to Scotty that a ship with dozens of torpedo tubes might be a ship or war? Or was he still trying to figure out where that aft nacelle is?
Scotty certainly understands that he and the Enterprise may be called upon to defend the Federation, hence, he knows the Enterprise has torpedo tubes and may need to become a ship of war. However, he also knows that was not the primary purpose of the Enterprise. It is a ship of exploration first, and a warship second.

Scotty objected to the torpedoes because he was not allowed to test whether or not they presented a danger to the ship. An older and wiser Jim Kirk would've sided with Scotty and asked to have those missiles removed from his ship until he was assured of their safety.

Scotty also objected to the mission because it flew in the face of what he believed Starfleet stood for (the mission is bloodlust and will likely start a war -- while defense is implicit in the ship's mission, neither or those offensive operations are. Peaceful exploring is explicit. Again, an older and wiser Jim Kirk would've immediately felt that way, too, and wouldn't have had to be persuaded by Spock that the mission was wrong and Khan needed to be apprehended and brought back alive to face due process under the law. Scotty knows firing those torpedoes will bring war. Kirk apparently doesn't care if it does. Scotty is the only sane one between the two of them at that moment.
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Old May 23 2014, 07:25 PM   #81
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Franklin wrote: View Post
YARN wrote: View Post
LOL, Scotty quits because all of the sudden he suspects that the Federation is losing it's mission, "I thought we were explorers."

Later on we find out that the Enterprise has at least 72 torpedo tubes along her secondary hull. She's a ship of the line, apparently.

Shouldn't it have occurred to Scotty that a ship with dozens of torpedo tubes might be a ship or war? Or was he still trying to figure out where that aft nacelle is?
Scotty certainly understands that he and the Enterprise may be called upon to defend the Federation, hence, he knows the Enterprise has torpedo tubes and may need to become a ship of war. However, he also knows that was not the primary purpose of the Enterprise. It is a ship of exploration first, and a warship second.

Scotty objected to the torpedoes because he was not allowed to test whether or not they presented a danger to the ship. An older and wiser Jim Kirk would've sided with Scotty and asked to have those missiles removed from his ship until he was assured of their safety.

Scotty also objected to the mission because it flew in the face of what he believed Starfleet stood for. Again, an older and wiser Jim Kirk would've immediately felt that way, too, and wouldn't have had to be persuaded by Spock that the mission was wrong and Khan needed to be apprehended and brought back alive to face due process under the law.
Right, it's a ship of exploration that has more torpedo tubes than we've ever seen on a starship named Enterprise. She's a 72-gun "peace keeper."
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Old May 23 2014, 07:39 PM   #82
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

YARN wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
YARN wrote: View Post
LOL, Scotty quits because all of the sudden he suspects that the Federation is losing it's mission, "I thought we were explorers."

Later on we find out that the Enterprise has at least 72 torpedo tubes along her secondary hull. She's a ship of the line, apparently.

Shouldn't it have occurred to Scotty that a ship with dozens of torpedo tubes might be a ship or war? Or was he still trying to figure out where that aft nacelle is?
Scotty certainly understands that he and the Enterprise may be called upon to defend the Federation, hence, he knows the Enterprise has torpedo tubes and may need to become a ship of war. However, he also knows that was not the primary purpose of the Enterprise. It is a ship of exploration first, and a warship second.

Scotty objected to the torpedoes because he was not allowed to test whether or not they presented a danger to the ship. An older and wiser Jim Kirk would've sided with Scotty and asked to have those missiles removed from his ship until he was assured of their safety.

Scotty also objected to the mission because it flew in the face of what he believed Starfleet stood for. Again, an older and wiser Jim Kirk would've immediately felt that way, too, and wouldn't have had to be persuaded by Spock that the mission was wrong and Khan needed to be apprehended and brought back alive to face due process under the law.
Right, it's a ship of exploration that has more torpedo tubes than we've ever seen on a starship named Enterprise. She's a 72-gun "peace keeper."
It's not that the ship is armed, or even heavily armed that defines what it is. While Starfleet does have a defensive purpose, the primary mission of the ship is exploration. In STID, it's said only a few Federation ships were built just for war.

Whether any other Enterprise had 72 torpedo tubes or not, they were all quite well-armed. In TUC, the torpedo manifest on board the Enterprise looked very large.

For all we know, the Enterprise was retrofit with extra torpedo tubes for the Khan mission (considering how easy it could be done with modular construction and the size of the ship, that wouldn't be a hard thing to imagine). It would be the oddest coincidence in the world, after all, if the Enterprise was built with exactly the right number of torpedo tubes to accommodate all of Khan's torpedoes/people at once.

Edited to add: Out of curiosity, I looked at a screencap from TUC which showed the Weapons Record for the Enterprise. There were 96 torpedoes in the inventory. Two had been fired. Ninety-six was probably a regular complement. That's two dozen more than the other Enterprise was given for its special mission.
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Old May 23 2014, 07:59 PM   #83
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

72 torpedo tubes is just ridiculous. And what about the life support system "located behind the aft nacelle"?
How does such a line even make it into the script?
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Old May 23 2014, 08:00 PM   #84
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Franklin wrote: View Post
It's not that the ship is armed, or even heavily armed that defines what it is.
One can avow that the purpose of an aircraft carrier is strictly to provide a "mobile airport services" but the country whose coast you park next to will feel differently.

What is a ship armed to the teeth with torpedo tubes good for?

What something is, has a lot to do with "what it's good for," because "what it's good for" provides a clue not only about how people intend to use it, but also how people will be likely to use it in the future even if they have no present intention (e.g., Fred owns a bank, but avows no interest in lending money to people. He may be sincere, but Fred might change his mind when he realizes he can make money via interest and fractional banking or necessity might require it when he learns that to keep the bank running, he needs to provide banking services).

Franklin wrote: View Post
Whether any other Enterprise had 72 torpedo tubes or not, they were all quite well-armed. In TUC, the torpedo manifest on board the Enterprise looked very large.
Indeed? How large did it look? And how many torpedo tubes did we see on the TMP Enterprise? That's right, she had two.

Franklin wrote: View Post
For all we know, the Enterprise was retrofit with extra torpedo tubes for the Khan mission (considering how easy it could be done with modular construction and the size of the ship, that wouldn't be a hard thing to imagine).
Sorry, you're just spinning your own retcon here. "For all we know..." is just a plea to ignorance. Sometimes such a plea is respectable, for example, when there is palpable presumption that such a thing would be happening behind the scenes. What you've offered, however, is the merest conjecture.

Franklin wrote: View Post
It would be the oddest coincidence in the world, after all, if the Enterprise was built with exactly the right number of torpedo tubes to accommodate all of Khan's torpedoes/people at once.
LOL, or she has even more torpedo tubes! Or it is what it looks like - bad writing.
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Old May 23 2014, 08:16 PM   #85
JarodRussell
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

And Marcus never grew suspicious when Khan said "we'll build exactly 72 torpedoes".

And nobody of the construction engineers wondered why they had to put stasis pods into them.
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Old May 23 2014, 08:18 PM   #86
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
72 torpedo tubes is just ridiculous. And what about the life support system "located behind the aft nacelle"?
How does such a line even make it into the script?
I'd agree that seventy-two tubes in the ship's original design would be odd if not downright weird. Since a movie can't be filled with exposition, I just supposed the ship was fitted with extra torpedo tubes to support Kirk's mission. Wouldn't have been that hard to do that.

As far as the "nacelle" line goes, odd lines and slip-ups occasionally make it all the way to the final cuts of the best of movies. For example, "The Godfather" has quite a few little bloopers that would be picked to death and probably ruin the movie for some if they were in a Trek film.
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Old May 23 2014, 08:21 PM   #87
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

I just try to imagine how they wrote that line in the first place. They already knew very well how the Enterprise looked like. There is no "aft" nacelle. And nothing can be located "behind" it.

I can understand stuff like that in a pilot episode of a TV show, or a first film, when the ship isn't even designed at the time the script is written.
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Old May 23 2014, 08:31 PM   #88
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I just try to imagine how they wrote that line in the first place. They already knew very well how the Enterprise looked like. There is no "aft" nacelle. And nothing can be located "behind" it.

I can understand stuff like that in a pilot episode of a TV show, or a first film, when the ship isn't even designed at the time the script is written.
It's hard to say. Could be Cumberbatch blew the line, it got by everyone, and when it was caught, it was either too late to reshoot the lines, or it would've been too expensive to redo it.

For what it's worth, in the time that has passed since this topic first appeared on these boards, does anyone know for sure how the line was written?
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Old May 23 2014, 08:35 PM   #89
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

I'm pretty sure we see the launchers being unloaded from the shuttles along with the torpedoes themselves. Even if I'm wrong, Scotty's protest was about how the weapons were being used, not that the ship was heavily armed. The TOS Enterprise supposedly had the ability to raze an entire world, after all.

This whole "72 launchers is too many!!!1!" thing is basically assuming two (from classic Enterprises) is the "correct" number. I always said if the TOS or classic movie Enterprises ever needed extra torpedo launchers that hatches would open on the hull exposing as many as needed.
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I just try to imagine how they wrote that line in the first place. They already knew very well how the Enterprise looked like. There is no "aft" nacelle. And nothing can be located "behind" it.

I can understand stuff like that in a pilot episode of a TV show, or a first film, when the ship isn't even designed at the time the script is written.
Cumberbatch likely flubbed his line. In ST'09, Pike says "transfer auxiliary power from port nacelles to forward shields!" when the script says nacelle singular.
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Old May 23 2014, 08:37 PM   #90
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
72 torpedo tubes
18 tubes, 4 torpedoes each, 9 each side.

Unless someone analysed the screencap and counted 72 tubes, I think the hull showed a lot fewer than that along it.
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