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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate The Klingon Art of War
Outstanding 4 57.14%
Above Average 1 14.29%
Average 2 28.57%
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Old June 11 2014, 04:01 AM   #31
Christopher
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

KRAD wrote: View Post
But I find the notion that the Klingons salvaged warp technology from the Hur'q to be absurd. The Klingons lost to the Hur'q, some of their great treasures plundered and stolen. I can't imagine they "got" anything, they just had to pay $50 and pick up the garbage. (Sorry, Arlo Guthrie reference. Moving on...)
But isn't that exactly what you established in The Art of the Impossible? As Memory Beta puts it, "Using captured Hur'q facilities and technology, Ch'gran oversaw the construction of a fleet of mighty warships, numbering seven in total, and on the anniversary of the Hur'q invasion, Ch'gran and the fleet ventured forth into space."


Besides, if they just stole the tech from the Hur'q, there's no way they would've been able to build an entire empire out of that unless they did a lot of the work themselves. Keep in mind that the Klingon Empire has been a thriving, powerful, multi-star-system empire for centuries. That means they've maintained that empire for all this time. That can't happen unless you've got smart people building things for you.
Well, sure, but Europe built a pretty long-lasting empire using technologies obtained from the Mideast and Asia, like gunpowder, the magnetic compass, and the lateen sail. Just because they got the technology from elsewhere and had their own development jumpstarted by it doesn't mean they were incapable of learning to use it. But the Klingons are a spacefaring culture with a basically medieval social structure and a reverence for rather old-fashioned weapons and practices coexisting with space-age technology, which suggests that they got into space at a relatively earlier stage in their history than we did.


Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
So before the 14th century Klingons had zero concept of outer space, starships, and aliens? Woah.
Uhm, no -- they had plenty of concepts of all those things, they just never travelled to the stars prior to the Hur'q invasion. It's not like it's a given that a society is even going to want to travel to space. Hell, right now, our society has mostly lost interest in it......
The concept of outer space has been around since antiquity. Giordano Bruno posited inhabited planets around other stars in the 1580s. The term "starship" antedates 1926 and the term "spaceship" antedates 1880, but the first fictional portrayal of a journey to other worlds and encounters with their inhabitants was written by Lucian of Samosata in the 2nd century CE. Lacking the technology for space travel doesn't equate to lacking the concept of it.
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Old June 12 2014, 05:56 AM   #32
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Christopher wrote: View Post
But isn't that exactly what you established in The Art of the Impossible? As Memory Beta puts it, "Using captured Hur'q facilities and technology, Ch'gran oversaw the construction of a fleet of mighty warships, numbering seven in total, and on the anniversary of the Hur'q invasion, Ch'gran and the fleet ventured forth into space."
As a starting point, yes, but they didn't just take warp drive from the Hur'q and turn into an interstellar empire.
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Old June 12 2014, 11:35 AM   #33
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

KRAD wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
But isn't that exactly what you established in The Art of the Impossible? As Memory Beta puts it, "Using captured Hur'q facilities and technology, Ch'gran oversaw the construction of a fleet of mighty warships, numbering seven in total, and on the anniversary of the Hur'q invasion, Ch'gran and the fleet ventured forth into space."
As a starting point, yes, but they didn't just take warp drive from the Hur'q and turn into an interstellar empire.
KRAD, I only see one way to solve the mystery of Klingon technological development - come back and write a novel.
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Old June 12 2014, 03:42 PM   #34
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

KRAD wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
But isn't that exactly what you established in The Art of the Impossible? As Memory Beta puts it, "Using captured Hur'q facilities and technology, Ch'gran oversaw the construction of a fleet of mighty warships, numbering seven in total, and on the anniversary of the Hur'q invasion, Ch'gran and the fleet ventured forth into space."
As a starting point, yes, but they didn't just take warp drive from the Hur'q and turn into an interstellar empire.
Although on p. 82 of TAoTI, you have Gul Monor express precisely that belief. Granted, Monor is a moron, but it shows that there are people in the Trek universe who believe that to be the case, so Soval believing it isn't out of the question. And the fact that people believe that suggests that it might be a distortion or simplification of the truth.

Also, the story related in the prologue seems to say that both the Hur'q invasion and the launching of the first warp fleet occurred within Ch'gran's lifetime. It doesn't actually mention captured Hur'q technology like the Memory Beta entry does, but it stands to reason that there was enough technology left by the Hur'q to allow the Klingons to reverse-engineer warp drive and other advanced technologies from it.

Plus it makes sense; the Klingons don't seem to be a culture that holds theoretical sciences in a lot of regard, and their technology doesn't seem to have advanced that quickly; they're not much farther along in the 24th century than in the 22nd, even using nearly the same ship designs. So it's plausible that they reverse-engineered Hur'q warp technology rather than inventing it independently. No, they didn't just collect a bunch of intact warp drives and begin using them, but they got the knowledge of warp drive, the necessary theoretical and technological underpinning for a warp-capable civilization, from what the Hur'q left behind.
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Old June 12 2014, 05:45 PM   #35
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Christopher wrote: View Post
Although on p. 82 of TAoTI, you have Gul Monor express precisely that belief. Granted, Monor is a moron, but it shows that there are people in the Trek universe who believe that to be the case, so Soval believing it isn't out of the question. And the fact that people believe that suggests that it might be a distortion or simplification of the truth.
Fair points, all, but I specifically put those words in Monor's mouth because he is, as you say, a moron.


Also, the story related in the prologue seems to say that both the Hur'q invasion and the launching of the first warp fleet occurred within Ch'gran's lifetime. It doesn't actually mention captured Hur'q technology like the Memory Beta entry does, but it stands to reason that there was enough technology left by the Hur'q to allow the Klingons to reverse-engineer warp drive and other advanced technologies from it.

Plus it makes sense; the Klingons don't seem to be a culture that holds theoretical sciences in a lot of regard, and their technology doesn't seem to have advanced that quickly; they're not much farther along in the 24th century than in the 22nd, even using nearly the same ship designs. So it's plausible that they reverse-engineered Hur'q warp technology rather than inventing it independently. No, they didn't just collect a bunch of intact warp drives and begin using them, but they got the knowledge of warp drive, the necessary theoretical and technological underpinning for a warp-capable civilization, from what the Hur'q left behind.
Yeah, that makes sense. The Hur'q technology gave them a baseline to work from, and the Hur'q invasion gave them the motivation to develop that technology, which they were never really eager to do in the first place.
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Old June 13 2014, 12:31 AM   #36
Johnhead99
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Re: Non-Prose: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
KRAD was never spectacular, but he was always solid
I disagree old sport. Articles of The Federation is in my top 5. It's spectacular.
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Old July 9 2014, 10:38 PM   #37
Deranged Nasat
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Please correct me if I'm wrong, KRAD or anyone else knowledgeable in tlhIngan Hol, but qeS is most typically translated to "advice", yes? And 'a' is an interrogative?

So qeS'a' is "Advice?"

As in, "Give me advice. Generally. Relevant to everything. To life as a whole.", or "You want advice? The only advice you need?"

Is that along the right lines? So it's really less The Art of War (K'Ratak isn't sure about "art") and more "The Book That Has The Answer To Life".
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Old July 9 2014, 10:58 PM   #38
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong, KRAD or anyone else knowledgeable in tlhIngan Hol, but qeS is most typically translated to "advice", yes? And 'a' is an interrogative?

So qeS'a' is "Advice?"

As in, "Give me advice. Generally. Relevant to everything. To life as a whole.", or "You want advice? The only advice you need?"

Is that along the right lines? So it's really less The Art of War (K'Ratak isn't sure about "art") and more "The Book That Has The Answer To Life".
In this case, -'a' is used in its augmentative meaning, amplifying the idea of advice. So qeS'a' means something like "major/important/supreme advice". An English equivalent might be "counsels".
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Old July 9 2014, 11:05 PM   #39
Deranged Nasat
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Terengo wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong, KRAD or anyone else knowledgeable in tlhIngan Hol, but qeS is most typically translated to "advice", yes? And 'a' is an interrogative?

So qeS'a' is "Advice?"

As in, "Give me advice. Generally. Relevant to everything. To life as a whole.", or "You want advice? The only advice you need?"

Is that along the right lines? So it's really less The Art of War (K'Ratak isn't sure about "art") and more "The Book That Has The Answer To Life".
In this case, -'a' is used in its augmentative meaning, amplifying the idea of advice. So qeS'a' means something like "major/important/supreme advice". An English equivalent might be "counsels".
Much obliged!
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