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View Poll Results: Rate The Klingon Art of War
Outstanding 4 57.14%
Above Average 1 14.29%
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Old May 27 2014, 01:22 PM   #16
Enterpriserules
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

We talked to KRAD about this new book on Literary Treks, enjoy!
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Old May 28 2014, 11:03 AM   #17
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Markonian wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
What are the years given, if any, for those 2160s events?
SPOILER!
Third Precept: K'ratak's commentary


Eighth Precept: K'ratak's Commentary
Sounds like the timing is vague enough that it could all happen several years after the current RotF timeframe (late 2164).
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Old May 31 2014, 05:24 PM   #18
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

When I read the precept about showing one's face to the enemy, I kept thinking that following that line strictly would mean that cloaking devices are inherently dishonorable. After all, the Klingons use them precisely for such attacks were the victim is caught by surprise.
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Old May 31 2014, 05:45 PM   #19
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Markonian wrote: View Post
When I read the precept about showing one's face to the enemy, I kept thinking that following that line strictly would mean that cloaking devices are inherently dishonorable. After all, the Klingons use them precisely for such attacks were the victim is caught by surprise.
Many would hold that honourable standards apply only when opposing those who are themselves honourable, and that the weak, cowardly or immoral don't deserve to be viewed as worthy opponents, hence the most honourable thing is victory. If you cloak to gain advantage over pirates, or Kreel raiders, or Jem'Hadar legions, or Kinshaya, or weakling Earthers, or any others who stand as an affront to honour, then it is no dishonour of yours.

Personally, I imagine it's only the zealots who take Kahless' supposed definitions of honour all that seriously. They're often philosophically or spiritually abstract, whereas I imagine most Klingons are more concerned with practical matters of honour as it relates to managing politics or battle.

Or, to put it another way - there's always an excuse when you really want something. And Klingons want to win. And Klingons are honourable, and winning is honourable. So whatever Klingons do to win is honourable. You wouldn't understand - you're not a Klingon. You're not honourable.
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Old May 31 2014, 07:31 PM   #20
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
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<snip>
<snip>
While I understand your reasoning, the qeS'a makes it abundantly clear that Klingons have to behave honorable continuously, in every situation and regardless of who's involved. When Mizaria is conquered by a Klingon captain, she doesn't bombard the surface because the Mizarians surrender immediately, which she despises. But she doesn't answer their 'dishonorable' behavior by discarding honor herself. Other examples, perhaps better suited at driving home this point, involve the honorable treatment of Romulans.
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Old May 31 2014, 07:47 PM   #21
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Markonian wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Markonian wrote: View Post
<snip>
<snip>
While I understand your reasoning, the qeS'a makes it abundantly clear that Klingons have to behave honorable continuously, in every situation and regardless of who's involved. When Mizaria is conquered by a Klingon captain, she doesn't bombard the surface because the Mizarians surrender immediately, which she despises. But she doesn't answer their 'dishonorable' behavior by discarding honor herself. Other examples, perhaps better suited at driving home this point, involve the honorable treatment of Romulans.
Well, yes, the qeS'a says that, and a true believer should live by that standard, but in practice I doubt many do, and even fewer when the Empire was at its expansionist height in the 23rd Century, when cloaks first became common (and when the traditionalist movement promoting devout attention to Kahless' teachings was only beginning to come back into vogue).

I imagine very few people would refuse to use a tactical tool because of devout attention to religious texts - for one thing, they'd become increasingly irrelevant in the face of invention. So they'll find a way to justify why it's acceptable, to twist the rules so that to adapt and change is honourable even where logic would seem to suggest that it isn't. On top of that, the easiest way to remain honourable at all times is to declare whatever you do honourable. Yes, the devout follower of Kahless would find that abhorrent, and totally contrary to the point, but I imagine Klingon society in general finds a compromise, a way to satisfy its desire to win with its supposed values which teach that to lose against worthy opponents is as honourable and satisfying as victory. The book does touch on something like this with the issue of energy weapons, and the changes their introduction brought, with the idea that the Klingon Empire was morally weakened and experienced the rot of dishonour being tied to the increased use of these non-traditional tools.

Although I would like to see the novels touch on how a close follower of the teachings explained within this book justifies their use of cloaking, yes.
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Old May 31 2014, 09:55 PM   #22
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Markonian wrote: View Post
When I read the precept about showing one's face to the enemy, I kept thinking that following that line strictly would mean that cloaking devices are inherently dishonorable. After all, the Klingons use them precisely for such attacks were the victim is caught by surprise.
What does the book say about disruptor use? I've always wondered about how Klingons regard projectile weapons versus melee weapons.
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Old May 31 2014, 10:28 PM   #23
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Markonian wrote: View Post
When I read the precept about showing one's face to the enemy, I kept thinking that following that line strictly would mean that cloaking devices are inherently dishonorable. After all, the Klingons use them precisely for such attacks were the victim is caught by surprise.
What does the book say about disruptor use? I've always wondered about how Klingons regard projectile weapons versus melee weapons.
It touches upon another period in Klingon history when the code of Kahless was waning in influence, around about the time that disruptors came into use.

"Skolar's reign was one of decadence and corruption. The noble Houses of the Empire were more concerned with the acquisition of wealth than with...conquest...

...There are those who argue that the development of energy weapons was responsible for the decadence of Skolar's regime, as combat became too simple..."

So, it would seem that Klingon society has been through this in the past - new realities that blur the path to honour and which are identified as contributing to a decline, or perceived decline, in honourable behaviour. The Klingons eventually accepted energy weapons - probably they had no choice once that genie was out of the bottle - and so their "pure" codes of conduct were stretched and adapted, one assumes, to compensate.
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Old June 8 2014, 10:06 PM   #24
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Some great general advice wrapped in ST.

And no need for a sweat lodge or gimmicks!
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Old June 10 2014, 05:16 PM   #25
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Were energy weapons developed before or after the Hur'q invasion? I've never been clear on the rate of technological development on Qo'noS.
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Old June 10 2014, 08:02 PM   #26
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Were energy weapons developed before or after the Hur'q invasion? I've never been clear on the rate of technological development on Qo'noS.
If I got it right, the Klingons were at an medieval level when the Hur'q invaded.
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Old June 10 2014, 11:20 PM   #27
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Were energy weapons developed before or after the Hur'q invasion? I've never been clear on the rate of technological development on Qo'noS.
I've always proceeded on the assumption that the Hur'q invasion led to a golden age of technological development in the empire, as they were determined to go to space and not allow themselves to be invaded and plundered like that ever again.
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Old June 10 2014, 11:48 PM   #28
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

In A Choice of Futures I had Soval say that the Hur'q invasion gave the Klingons access to advanced weapons and warp drive before they were sophisticated enough to wield such technologies responsibly, as well as giving them a heightened hostility toward outsiders. But Soval was a proponent of non-interference and could've been slanting or simplifying the facts to serve that agenda.
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Old June 11 2014, 02:08 AM   #29
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

So before the 14th century Klingons had zero concept of outer space, starships, and aliens? Woah.

Last edited by Enterprise1701; June 11 2014 at 02:08 AM. Reason: Typo.
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Old June 11 2014, 02:40 AM   #30
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Re: Non-Novel: The Klingon Art of War by K.R.A. DeCandido Review Threa

Christopher wrote: View Post
In A Choice of Futures I had Soval say that the Hur'q invasion gave the Klingons access to advanced weapons and warp drive before they were sophisticated enough to wield such technologies responsibly, as well as giving them a heightened hostility toward outsiders. But Soval was a proponent of non-interference and could've been slanting or simplifying the facts to serve that agenda.
Well, Soval probably has a different definition of "responsibly" than others might. *wry grin* And the hostility toward outsiders is certainly the truth -- that remains into the 24th century.

But I find the notion that the Klingons salvaged warp technology from the Hur'q to be absurd. The Klingons lost to the Hur'q, some of their great treasures plundered and stolen. I can't imagine they "got" anything, they just had to pay $50 and pick up the garbage. (Sorry, Arlo Guthrie reference. Moving on...) Besides, if they just stole the tech from the Hur'q, there's no way they would've been able to build an entire empire out of that unless they did a lot of the work themselves. Keep in mind that the Klingon Empire has been a thriving, powerful, multi-star-system empire for centuries. That means they've maintained that empire for all this time. That can't happen unless you've got smart people building things for you.


Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
So before the 14th century Klingons had zero concept of outer space, starships, and aliens? Woah.
Uhm, no -- they had plenty of concepts of all those things, they just never travelled to the stars prior to the Hur'q invasion. It's not like it's a given that a society is even going to want to travel to space. Hell, right now, our society has mostly lost interest in it......
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