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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 29 2014, 02:32 PM   #121
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
I guess my problem is Decker's statement in TMP. "This is a completely new Enterprise" or something to that effect. The technology is updated, the shape is different... Heck, Kirk gets LOST trying to find the turbolift.

We see Reliant looking identical inside (due to set reuse, obviously) and take-apart/put-back-together outside. That design lasts through several seasons or DS9 and First Contact. But in TSFS it's time for Enterprise to call it quits? To quote/bastardize nuMcCoy, there's nothing left of TOS Enterprise but its bones. If that.

Is there a thread somewhere that discusses the practicality of refitting the TOS design into what we see in TMP? Gotta be...
There was an idea, perhaps first proposed in Shane Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, that the Enterprise's refit was originally intended to be just an upgrade to her engines, but it snowballed out of control and the ship wound up being a testbed for several other new systems, prompting pretty much a redesign of the entire vessel. Of the original vessel, the only thing that may be left could be a few internal spaceframe members here and there, IMO.
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Old May 29 2014, 04:39 PM   #122
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
We see Reliant looking identical inside (due to set reuse, obviously) and take-apart/put-back-together outside. That design lasts through several seasons or DS9 and First Contact. But in TSFS it's time for Enterprise to call it quits?
I for one hated seeing the Miranda class in TNG and especially DS9, for just the reasons you mention. If you're gonna retire the Connies 70 years before, then what's the deal with the Mirandas? Just how are they inherently surperior and longer-lasting than the TMP refit?

And someone mentioned that in TFF it's mentioned that ENT-A is a new ship. Is there a canon source for this?
The only "proof" is Scotty's line about "This new Enterprise...", which still doesn't necessarily mean it's a new build. If I just bought a used car, I wouldn't say to my friends, "Hey, let's all take a ride in my used car." I'd say "new car," because it's new to me.
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Old May 29 2014, 07:02 PM   #123
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
austen_pierce wrote: View Post
We see Reliant looking identical inside (due to set reuse, obviously) and take-apart/put-back-together outside. That design lasts through several seasons or DS9 and First Contact. But in TSFS it's time for Enterprise to call it quits?
I for one hated seeing the Miranda class in TNG and especially DS9, for just the reasons you mention. If you're gonna retire the Connies 70 years before, then what's the deal with the Mirandas? Just how are they inherently surperior and longer-lasting than the TMP refit?
I think the Miranda-class was just a versatile design that could be built in large numbers and was fairly easy to both maintain & upgrade over the decades (at least with its internal systems). It kind of became a convenient workhorse design that Starfleet always could rely on, IMO.

Or it may have just been a cannon fodder design.
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Old May 29 2014, 10:18 PM   #124
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

austen_pierce wrote:
And someone mentioned that in TFF it's mentioned that ENT-A is a new ship. Is there a canon source for this?
"U.S.S. Enterprise shakedown cruise report: I think this new ship was put together by monkeys..."
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Old May 30 2014, 12:23 AM   #125
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

All other arguments aside, Kirk belongs on the bridge of a Constitution class Enterprise. To put him on a different design ship at that point in his career would have been, for lack of a better term, blasphemous.

When the shuttle passed Excelsior bringing the -A into view, you could feel the theater audience smiling. I can't imagine anyone arguing for a different ship 30 years ago.
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Old May 30 2014, 02:18 AM   #126
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
"U.S.S. Enterprise shakedown cruise report: I think this new ship was put together by monkeys..."
Which again is hardly irrefutable proof that the ship was a newbuild.

urbandefault wrote: View Post
All other arguments aside, Kirk belongs on the bridge of a Constitution class Enterprise. To put him on a different design ship at that point in his career would have been, for lack of a better term, blasphemous.

When the shuttle passed Excelsior bringing the -A into view, you could feel the theater audience smiling. I can't imagine anyone arguing for a different ship 30 years ago.
Exactly. Seeing the TMP Enterprise again was like seeing Spock alive again: Our heroes have returned from the dead. At that time, nothing would have been a more perfect ending than seeing that particular ship, never mind that it wasn't the original NCC-1701.

Unfortunately that awesome final scene literally should have been the final scene. The TOS films should have ended at that point...but, well...they didn't.
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Old May 30 2014, 10:03 AM   #127
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

Exactly. Seeing the TMP Enterprise again was like seeing Spock alive again: Our heroes have returned from the dead. At that time, nothing would have been a more perfect ending than seeing that particular ship, never mind that it wasn't the original NCC-1701.
Unfortunately that awesome final scene literally should have been the final scene. The TOS films should have ended at that point...but, well...they didn't.
they were probably meant to (esp with TNG about to go ahead) but IV made too much $!

There was an idea, perhaps first proposed in Shane Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, that the Enterprise's refit was originally intended to be just an upgrade to her engines, but it snowballed out of control and the ship wound up being a testbed for several other new systems, prompting pretty much a redesign of the entire vessel. Of the original vessel, the only thing that may be left could be a few internal spaceframe members here and there, IMO.
cant remember where i read it (may have been Scotties Guide) but i think the ENT A was originally a new Constitution called Yorktown but when they decided to give kirk a ship got rechristened Ent A
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Old May 30 2014, 09:20 PM   #128
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

Khan 2.0 wrote: View Post
cant remember where i read it (may have been Scotties Guide) but i think the ENT A was originally a new Constitution called Yorktown but when they decided to give kirk a ship got rechristened Ent A
Mr. Scott's Guide = ship was previously U.S.S. Ti-Ho.
Roddenberry = ship was previously U.S.S. Yorktown.
canon Star Trek = no definitive answer.
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Old May 30 2014, 11:05 PM   #129
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Mr. Scott's Guide = ship was previously U.S.S. Ti-Ho.
Roddenberry = ship was previously U.S.S. Yorktown.
canon Star Trek = no definitive answer.
This sums it up.

Though I'm partial to the Ti-Ho conjecture. I'm fond of Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.
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Old May 31 2014, 03:49 AM   #130
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

The FASA Star Trek IV Sourcebook Update likewise postulated a new-build NCC-1701-A, originally designated USS Atlantis (NCC-1786), and rechristened USS Enterprise after the Whalesong Crisis was resolved.

That said, I think authorial intent still has to be taken somewhat into account, with regard to the "new" Enterprise referenced in TFF -- it's very likely that William Shatner, Harve Bennett, and David Loughery were insinuating that the 1701-A was indeed a brand-new ship with Scotty's dialogue in that scene, and were intending for the audience to interpret it in that particular light, based on the rather simple and straightforward phrasing.

Again, true, that's by no means absolute proof, but it's worth considering, given the structure of the dialogue.
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Old May 31 2014, 03:56 AM   #131
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

Personally, I think it would be odd for an older ship that had just been operational to be having so many basic hardware and software issues.
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Old May 31 2014, 12:25 PM   #132
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

Leto_II wrote: View Post
Also, the FASA Star Trek IV Sourcebook Update likewise postulated a new-build NCC-1701-A, originally designated USS Atlantis (NCC-1786), and rechristened USS Enterprise after the Whalesong Crisis was resolved.

That said, I think authorial intent still has to be taken somewhat into account, with regard to the "new" Enterprise referenced in TFF -- it's very likely that William Shatner, Harve Bennett, and David Loughery were insinuating that the 1701-A was indeed a brand-new ship with Scotty's dialogue in that scene, and were intending for the audience to interpret it in that particular light, based on the rather simple and straightforward phrasing.

Again, true, that's by no means absolute proof, but it's worth considering, given the structure of the dialogue.
I always thought that they gave newly demoted Captain Kirk a ship as thanks for saving the planet, but they gave him the worst ship in the fleet as cheap punishment at the same time.
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Old May 31 2014, 02:10 PM   #133
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Leto_II wrote: View Post
Also, the FASA Star Trek IV Sourcebook Update likewise postulated a new-build NCC-1701-A, originally designated USS Atlantis (NCC-1786), and rechristened USS Enterprise after the Whalesong Crisis was resolved.

That said, I think authorial intent still has to be taken somewhat into account, with regard to the "new" Enterprise referenced in TFF -- it's very likely that William Shatner, Harve Bennett, and David Loughery were insinuating that the 1701-A was indeed a brand-new ship with Scotty's dialogue in that scene, and were intending for the audience to interpret it in that particular light, based on the rather simple and straightforward phrasing.

Again, true, that's by no means absolute proof, but it's worth considering, given the structure of the dialogue.
I always thought that they gave newly demoted Captain Kirk a ship as thanks for saving the planet, but they gave him the worst ship in the fleet as cheap punishment at the same time.
I pretty much go with that too. Personally, I think the Enterprise-A was probably a refitted Constitution-class that was almost as old as the original and was that old by the time of Star Trek VI.
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Old June 1 2014, 06:08 AM   #134
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Personally, I think it would be odd for an older ship that had just been operational to be having so many basic hardware and software issues.
Agreed. If Starfleet really was giving the crew such a gift for literally saving the planet, then I'd think it would have been at least checked out for problems first.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I always thought that they gave newly demoted Captain Kirk a ship as thanks for saving the planet, but they gave him the worst ship in the fleet as cheap punishment at the same time.
I suppose that makes about as much sense as anything else in STV. But if that were the case, then why did Admiral Harve send it out on a highly dangerous mission? Was he intentionally trying to get Kirk and his crew killed?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I pretty much go with that too. Personally, I think the Enterprise-A was probably a refitted Constitution-class that was almost as old as the original and was that old by the time of Star Trek VI.
Well, the one piece of visual evidence we have is that at the end of STIV the Ent-A's bridge is the same type as the original refit, but in STV it's newer, implying at least some kind of major upgrade was done between the two movies and that it wasn't a new ship.
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Old June 1 2014, 06:15 AM   #135
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I always thought that they gave newly demoted Captain Kirk a ship as thanks for saving the planet, but they gave him the worst ship in the fleet as cheap punishment at the same time.
Maybe it's different, seeing as he's James T. Kirk...but in a way it was a weird 'thanks for all that you do'. If I do something at work that ends up saving the employees' lives and the company from collapse, I'm not sure how appreciated I'd feel about "As a thanks for your heroic efforts...here's a truckload of more work!".
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