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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 1 2014, 08:04 AM   #136
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

Better than "Thanks for all the work, here's a two-year sentence in a Starfleet penal installation and a dishorable discharge for all the shit you pulled immediately beforehand."

Anyway, when I had this discussion with my late father not long after the movie came out, he pointed out that the militaries of today regularly continue to produce "obsolete" weapons years and even decades after they have been technically superseded by newer designs.

Also, there are two very strong out-of-universe reasons why we never see Connies in TNG et al. but we see no end of Excelsiors and Mirandas. 1. Neither of those classes was ever a hero ship. 24th Century appearances of the design could have diluted its iconic association with Kirk. 2. ILM built the Miranda and Excelsior models to be much lighter and easier to photograph than the Magicam-built Enterprise re-fit. It was no doubt cheaper and easier to re-use those miniatures than to use the Enterprise or to build several other 24th Century ships. Do we ever see one before "Yesterday's Enterprise"?
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Old June 1 2014, 08:35 PM   #137
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

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Excellent points, Strudel. We do see the Constellation-class USS Stargazer in TNG's "The Battle," but interestingly (A) that design's actually a 23rd Century one, and (B) the plan was to reuse the TMP-refit Enterprise model in that particular episode, but was changed at the last minute (i.e., Geordi's now-infamous "Constellation class" post-production overdub, from "Constitution-class").

But yes -- prior to "Yesterday's Enterprise," we don't see any other new Starfleet ship classes onscreen before the Ambassador model was built (we see the Galaxy, Excelsior, Miranda, Constellation, and Oberth models reused quite extensiviely during Seasons 1 and 2).
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Old June 1 2014, 08:46 PM   #138
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

I had forgotten the Constellation class. Though it is essentially a Constitution class kitbash (and an ungainly one at that), it does qualify as a new design if not a very 24th Century seeming one.
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Old June 1 2014, 09:03 PM   #139
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

Also, now that I'm remembering, we do hear the Ambassador-class referred to in dialogue way back in TNG's first season (in the episode "Conspiracy"), but no model was as then yet built (despite seeing debris onscreen after the USS Horatio's destruction).
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Old June 1 2014, 09:11 PM   #140
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
ILM built the Miranda and Excelsior models to be much lighter and easier to photograph than the Magicam-built Enterprise re-fit. It was no doubt cheaper and easier to re-use those miniatures than to use the Enterprise or to build several other 24th Century ships. Do we ever see one before "Yesterday's Enterprise"?
We almost saw one as the Stargazer. While the yellow four-nacelled desktop model was always supposed to represent the ship, when VFX filming for "The Battle" commenced, they were going to use the TMP Enterprise instead to save money and time. However, Greg Jein was able to build the Constellation class model in time for it to be filmed.

*EDIT* Leto already stated this.
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Old June 2 2014, 02:12 AM   #141
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

While I would have liked to have seen the TMP Enterprise model used at some point, I think I'm glad they made the decision they did with the Stargazer. To have Picard's first command, the ship he always still pines for, his "one true love" as he discussed with Scotty... to have that ship be the same as Kirk's ship... that just doesn't work for me.
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Old June 2 2014, 02:16 AM   #142
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Personally, I think it would be odd for an older ship that had just been operational to be having so many basic hardware and software issues.
Agreed. If Starfleet really was giving the crew such a gift for literally saving the planet, then I'd think it would have been at least checked out for problems first.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I always thought that they gave newly demoted Captain Kirk a ship as thanks for saving the planet, but they gave him the worst ship in the fleet as cheap punishment at the same time.
I suppose that makes about as much sense as anything else in STV. But if that were the case, then why did Admiral Harve send it out on a highly dangerous mission? Was he intentionally trying to get Kirk and his crew killed?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I pretty much go with that too. Personally, I think the Enterprise-A was probably a refitted Constitution-class that was almost as old as the original and was that old by the time of Star Trek VI.
Well, the one piece of visual evidence we have is that at the end of STIV the Ent-A's bridge is the same type as the original refit, but in STV it's newer, implying at least some kind of major upgrade was done between the two movies and that it wasn't a new ship.
The change in bridge is compelling. I liked the idea of Ent-A being a rechristened Yorktown, but it made little sense onscreen against all the ship's systemic problems in TFF. And what of Yorktown's crew? Marooned on Ceti Alpha V?

I also have a hard time believing Starfleet just has a ship lying around, but this is easier to swallow assuming this is a TMP/TWOK design (and build) Yorktown undergoing a MAJOR internal upgrade to bring its systems up to Excelsior standard. Scotty's line makes sense in this context, again assuming this ship was built from scratch as the TMP-refit design. From his perspective (a very old TOS enterprise), even a TMP era ship would be new.

OK lots of rationalizing going on here. Feel free to pick apart. All in good fun, of course.

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Better than "Thanks for all the work, here's a two-year sentence in a Starfleet penal installation and a dishorable discharge for all the shit you pulled immediately beforehand."

Anyway, when I had this discussion with my late father not long after the movie came out, he pointed out that the militaries of today regularly continue to produce "obsolete" weapons years and even decades after they have been technically superseded by newer designs.

Also, there are two very strong out-of-universe reasons why we never see Connies in TNG et al. but we see no end of Excelsiors and Mirandas. 1. Neither of those classes was ever a hero ship. 24th Century appearances of the design could have diluted its iconic association with Kirk. 2. ILM built the Miranda and Excelsior models to be much lighter and easier to photograph than the Magicam-built Enterprise re-fit. It was no doubt cheaper and easier to re-use those miniatures than to use the Enterprise or to build several other 24th Century ships. Do we ever see one before "Yesterday's Enterprise"?
Sigh. You win. I would have LOVED to see a Connie in TMP, but, yes, it would have taken away from TMP. Even pulling out all the stops in "All Good Things" and having Kirk and Ent-A show up to help at the temporal anomaly is just fanwank. Fanboys can't win on this one. The best we get is the tease in "The Best of Both Worlds"
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Old June 2 2014, 03:36 AM   #143
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
The best we get is the tease in "The Best of Both Worlds"
What tease is this?
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Old June 2 2014, 03:45 AM   #144
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

YARN wrote: View Post
austen_pierce wrote: View Post
The best we get is the tease in "The Best of Both Worlds"
What tease is this?
My guess is he's referring to what looked to be a refit secondary hull in the debris field at Wolf 359.
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Old June 2 2014, 04:00 AM   #145
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

YARN wrote: View Post
austen_pierce wrote: View Post
The best we get is the tease in "The Best of Both Worlds"
What tease is this?
The destroyed model of the Enterprise from STIII was used as wreckage in BoBW. The saucer was seen at the start of the scene, and the secondary hull was seen before the commercial break. Both pieces being quite large, they were prominently seen in the shots. However, since there was never a scene of the ship intact, we can speculate that either there was in fact a Connie at Wolf 359, or that we simply saw similar-looking parts from an entirely different class of ship.

Same goes for DS9's "Sound of Her Voice." The STIII saucer was used again as wreckage of the U.S.S. Olympia (along with a destroyed Reliant nacelle and pylon from STII). Since neither of those parts go together in any combination of ship class we know of, it's possible that the Olympia was not a Connie but another class which used similar parts.
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Old June 2 2014, 05:08 PM   #146
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

drt wrote: View Post
YARN wrote: View Post
austen_pierce wrote: View Post
The best we get is the tease in "The Best of Both Worlds"
What tease is this?
My guess is he's referring to what looked to be a refit secondary hull in the debris field at Wolf 359.
Which would be this screencap.

Bob
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Old June 2 2014, 11:32 PM   #147
C.E. Evans
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Personally, I think it would be odd for an older ship that had just been operational to be having so many basic hardware and software issues.
Agreed. If Starfleet really was giving the crew such a gift for literally saving the planet, then I'd think it would have been at least checked out for problems first.



I suppose that makes about as much sense as anything else in STV. But if that were the case, then why did Admiral Harve send it out on a highly dangerous mission? Was he intentionally trying to get Kirk and his crew killed?



Well, the one piece of visual evidence we have is that at the end of STIV the Ent-A's bridge is the same type as the original refit, but in STV it's newer, implying at least some kind of major upgrade was done between the two movies and that it wasn't a new ship.
The change in bridge is compelling. I liked the idea of Ent-A being a rechristened Yorktown, but it made little sense onscreen against all the ship's systemic problems in TFF. And what of Yorktown's crew? Marooned on Ceti Alpha V?
Or assigned to a brand-new USS Yorktown (in VOY's "Flashback," Tuvok's father was said to be aboard a Yorktown at the time of Star Trek VI). Maybe that Yorktown was an Excelsior-class ship.
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Old June 3 2014, 12:06 AM   #148
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

I've always figured that it was a refit-in-progress when the big giant log thing showed up. After Kirk & co.'s adventures in 80s land, Starfleet was instructed to slap 1701-A on it and it was given to Kirk as part of his "punishment."

Whether it was Yorktown, or Ti-Ho, or whatever, it doesn't matter. The previous crew was probably assigned to other postings, and the CO overseeing the refit was likely not going to take command upon completion anyway.

As for the crew? They weren't technically being punished by being assigned to the -A, but their careers were probably damaged enough that they wouldn't be posted anywhere better. Except for Sulu, who finally got Excelsior (that bucket of bolts!).

Spock stayed on because he would "stand with [his] shipmates," and as he told Sarek, "they are [his] friends."

That's how I see it.
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Old June 3 2014, 12:12 AM   #149
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

But we see the Yorktown in action during The Voyage Home.
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Old June 3 2014, 12:23 AM   #150
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Re: Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

And being severely crippled, not even able to keep its life-support systems going.
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