RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,184
Posts: 5,436,008
Members: 24,947
Currently online: 669
Newest member: CaptainJaymez

TrekToday headlines

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old May 12 2014, 03:22 AM   #16
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
The problem is the going apeshit with TNG references.
Not necessarily, since it's all supposed to be the same universe -- and of course, in real-world terms, there were probably more TNG fans watching TV in the early 2000s than TOS fans, at least in the prime demographic for advertisers, so it made sense to appeal to them.

And it's not unprecedented for things to be discovered and forgotten. If Columbus and his successors could make "first contact" with North America without knowing that the Vikings had done so 500 years earlier, then Picard could make "first contact" with the Ferengi without knowing Archer had done it 200 years earlier.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline  
Old May 12 2014, 04:02 AM   #17
Nebusj
Rear Admiral
 
Nebusj's Avatar
 
View Nebusj's Twitter Profile
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Christopher wrote: View Post
And it's not unprecedented for things to be discovered and forgotten. If Columbus and his successors could make "first contact" with North America without knowing that the Vikings had done so 500 years earlier, then Picard could make "first contact" with the Ferengi without knowing Archer had done it 200 years earlier.
As it's quite plausible that Earth will forget the first contacts made by its first deep-space exploratory starship on a mission of making first contacts.
Nebusj is online now  
Old May 12 2014, 04:09 AM   #18
Jar Jar Binks
Admiral
 
Jar Jar Binks's Avatar
 
Location: Skywalker
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Mister Spock wrote: View Post
I remember hearing that it didn't bear the Star Trek title at the beginning because of the setting of the show - that for the characters and ship, it wasn't quite Star Trek as we knew it. It was more about how things became Star Trek.
I'm pretty sure that was just the fancy PR explanation they came up with because it sounds nicer than the real, marketing-related reason.
Jar Jar Binks is offline  
Old May 12 2014, 04:16 AM   #19
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Nebusj wrote: View Post
As it's quite plausible that Earth will forget the first contacts made by its first deep-space exploratory starship on a mission of making first contacts.
The thing about discovery is that it isn't always immediately clear what's been discovered. Nobody in "Acquisition" ever learned that the species they'd met was named Ferengi -- and in the TNG era, Starfleet learned the name Ferengi long before they knew what the species looked like. So they wouldn't have been able to match the name with the appearance, and thus it's perfectly plausible. (Indeed, maybe the individuals who raided NX-01 didn't call themselves Ferengi. Maybe they spoke a different language from the one that's dominant in the 24th century. We English-speakers call ourselves humans or Earthlings, but a Japanese speaker would call us ningen or Chikyuujin).

The Borg in "Regeneration" are a little trickier, but that ship sailed with Voyager: "The Raven" when it established that Magnus Hansen had known about the Borg years before "Q Who."
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline  
Old May 12 2014, 04:54 AM   #20
Geoff Peterson
Fleet Admiral
 
Geoff Peterson's Avatar
 
Location: 20 feet from an outlet
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Christopher wrote: View Post
Nebusj wrote: View Post
As it's quite plausible that Earth will forget the first contacts made by its first deep-space exploratory starship on a mission of making first contacts.
The thing about discovery is that it isn't always immediately clear what's been discovered. Nobody in "Acquisition" ever learned that the species they'd met was named Ferengi -- and in the TNG era, Starfleet learned the name Ferengi long before they knew what the species looked like. So they wouldn't have been able to match the name with the appearance, and thus it's perfectly plausible. (Indeed, maybe the individuals who raided NX-01 didn't call themselves Ferengi. Maybe they spoke a different language from the one that's dominant in the 24th century. We English-speakers call ourselves humans or Earthlings, but a Japanese speaker would call us ningen or Chikyuujin).

The Borg in "Regeneration" are a little trickier, but that ship sailed with Voyager: "The Raven" when it established that Magnus Hansen had known about the Borg years before "Q Who."
I'm always amazed how many people tend to forget that Starfleet was quite familiar with many aspects of the Ferengi prior to the actually seeing them.
__________________
Nerys Myk
Geoff Peterson is offline  
Old May 12 2014, 12:58 PM   #21
Trek Survivor
Captain
 
Location: UK
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Christopher wrote: View Post
The thing about discovery is that it isn't always immediately clear what's been discovered. Nobody in "Acquisition" ever learned that the species they'd met was named Ferengi -- and in the TNG era, Starfleet learned the name Ferengi long before they knew what the species looked like. So they wouldn't have been able to match the name with the appearance, and thus it's perfectly plausible.
Exactly and well said. I see no problem - the Ferengi raid in "Enterprise" was a minor footnote in its career. Just another "weird alien species" encountered in those first few years of space travel.

I am sure during those years of uncertainty and rumour about the Ferengi (up to "The Last Outpost" in TNG) some scholars and experts may have suggested the raiders in "Enterprise" logs may be Ferengi, but without firm evidence...? (Note - did Enterprise not have CCTV around the corridors?)

AS for the OP claim... bogus for all the reasons already stated.
__________________
Want an awesome read? Check out "Showdown: A Darker Evil Rising" on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Darke...er+evil+rising
Trek Survivor is offline  
Old May 12 2014, 03:50 PM   #22
Geoff Peterson
Fleet Admiral
 
Geoff Peterson's Avatar
 
Location: 20 feet from an outlet
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

All the CCTV footage in the galaxy won't give them a name if it's never spoken. Basically you have two sets of information a visual one and an audio one. Until they are linked in the Last Outpost, you could be dealing with two separate species: The mysterious Ferengi and the big eared snaggletoothed pirates from the 22nd Century.
__________________
Nerys Myk
Geoff Peterson is offline  
Old May 12 2014, 05:37 PM   #23
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Again, nobody in the 24th-century Starfleet ever saw a Ferengi until "The Last Outpost." They were already aware of the Ferengi as a potential threat, but didn't know what they were really like beyond rumors. Sure, once DaiMon Tarr appeared on the viewscreen, Data could've potentially run a records search and matched the Ferengi's physiognomy to that nameless species Archer's Enterprise was once raided by, but that would've been a minor footnote. And would he really have been motivated to look for connections? After all, they already knew these guys were Ferengi. (Plus, of course, ENT hadn't been created yet so that wasn't an option. The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction can and does get rewritten.)
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline  
Old May 12 2014, 05:59 PM   #24
Ro_Laren
Commodore
 
Ro_Laren's Avatar
 
Location: The Badlands
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Ummmm... why in the world would the TNG cast ever agree to give up royalties to help a different TV show? That would hurt their pocketbook unless you wanted to argue that it would keep Star Trek in general more popular and thus keep a higher demand for convention appearances where they could make money.
Ro_Laren is offline  
Old May 12 2014, 09:03 PM   #25
Nebusj
Rear Admiral
 
Nebusj's Avatar
 
View Nebusj's Twitter Profile
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
All the CCTV footage in the galaxy won't give them a name if it's never spoken. Basically you have two sets of information a visual one and an audio one. Until they are linked in the Last Outpost, you could be dealing with two separate species: The mysterious Ferengi and the big eared snaggletoothed pirates from the 22nd Century.
So why did Team Archer fail to take a record of, say, the big ``MANUFACTURED BY FERENGI QUALITY STARSHIPS --- THE ONLY STARSHIPS CERTIFIED BY THE FERENGI COMMERCE AUTHORITY --- ASK FOR IT BY NAME'' written across the hull and popping up as advertisements all over the Ferengi ship that they had available to study?

This is the problem with the episode. I will grant that we didn't hear anyone say ``Ferengi'' during it. I will not grant that a team of people sent out to learn about the species in space around them will, having recaptured their ship from aliens and having captured the alien ship in turn, refuse to gather as much information about the new pirates lurking on the edge of human space as they possibly can, from the people they have or the ship they have in their command; nor that the Ferengi --- who are there in order to further their commercial aims, and who have no in-character reason to stay secret --- will keep their own identities absolutely secret even among themselves.

(I also don't grant that a single Ferengi ship is going to venture to near-earth space, and then every Ferengi ship ever is going to avoid the expanding bubble of Earth-linked space for 175 years because of … reasons … maybe … that totally exist.)
Nebusj is online now  
Old May 12 2014, 09:49 PM   #26
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Nebusj wrote: View Post
So why did Team Archer fail to take a record of, say, the big ``MANUFACTURED BY FERENGI QUALITY STARSHIPS --- THE ONLY STARSHIPS CERTIFIED BY THE FERENGI COMMERCE AUTHORITY --- ASK FOR IT BY NAME'' written across the hull and popping up as advertisements all over the Ferengi ship that they had available to study?
Like I said -- humans speak many languages and have many different names for our species, so why do we always assume that any alien species would only have one language and one name for itself? There's no reason to assume that ship's builders and crew spoke the same language as the dominant Ferengi culture from 200 years later.

Well, on second thought, we did hear the characters speaking "Ferengi" in the teaser and first act, and I would expect the producers used the same language they used for DS9, or something close to it. But it's hard to know for sure.

But even then it could still work, if perhaps "Ferengi" is more of a nationality than a species name. Maybe there were two nations that spoke roughly the same language but used different names for themselves, like Americans and Britons or Portuguese and Brazilians, and eventually the one that called itself "Ferengi" came to unite the whole planet under its influence and their national demonym came to be used for the entire species.


This is the problem with the episode. I will grant that we didn't hear anyone say ``Ferengi'' during it. I will not grant that a team of people sent out to learn about the species in space around them will, having recaptured their ship from aliens and having captured the alien ship in turn, refuse to gather as much information about the new pirates lurking on the edge of human space as they possibly can, from the people they have or the ship they have in their command; nor that the Ferengi --- who are there in order to further their commercial aims, and who have no in-character reason to stay secret --- will keep their own identities absolutely secret even among themselves.
Except that Enterprise spent most of season 2 well beyond "the edge of human space." Their goal was to travel as far outward as they could get, and they were months beyond familiar ports for most of that season; remember how long it took them to get home after the Xindi attack, even at maximum warp. By analogy, we're talking about the equivalent of British or Italian mariners sailing clear to the Indian Ocean, or Chinese mariners reaching Africa and bringing back giraffes. Exploration isn't about sticking close to your own borders, or waiting until everything within a given radius is thoroughly charted before venturing further outward. NX-01 was probing territories that humans might not have come back to for generations to come.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline  
Old May 12 2014, 10:31 PM   #27
Geoff Peterson
Fleet Admiral
 
Geoff Peterson's Avatar
 
Location: 20 feet from an outlet
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Nebusj wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
All the CCTV footage in the galaxy won't give them a name if it's never spoken. Basically you have two sets of information a visual one and an audio one. Until they are linked in the Last Outpost, you could be dealing with two separate species: The mysterious Ferengi and the big eared snaggletoothed pirates from the 22nd Century.
So why did Team Archer fail to take a record of, say, the big ``MANUFACTURED BY FERENGI QUALITY STARSHIPS --- THE ONLY STARSHIPS CERTIFIED BY THE FERENGI COMMERCE AUTHORITY --- ASK FOR IT BY NAME'' written across the hull and popping up as advertisements all over the Ferengi ship that they had available to study?

This is the problem with the episode. I will grant that we didn't hear anyone say ``Ferengi'' during it. I will not grant that a team of people sent out to learn about the species in space around them will, having recaptured their ship from aliens and having captured the alien ship in turn, refuse to gather as much information about the new pirates lurking on the edge of human space as they possibly can, from the people they have or the ship they have in their command; nor that the Ferengi --- who are there in order to further their commercial aims, and who have no in-character reason to stay secret --- will keep their own identities absolutely secret even among themselves.

(I also don't grant that a single Ferengi ship is going to venture to near-earth space, and then every Ferengi ship ever is going to avoid the expanding bubble of Earth-linked space for 175 years because of … reasons … maybe … that totally exist.)
It was one ship, not an entire fleet. A ship that ran back to "known space" with its tail between it's legs after being threatened by Archer.

The Ferengi's MO seems to be playing safe until they have the lay of the land. The Ferengi ship in "The Battle" didn't broadcast it was from the Ferengi alliance. Nor did it have any marking identifying it as such. It just attacked the Stargazer. The ship in "The Last Outpost" also refused to respond to hails. When it did respond, it used audio only communication at first, claiming visual contact was against their customs. They also knocked out the crew of the NX-01 before boarding it. Sounds like the Ferengi have a pattern of keep parts of their identities secret.

We've no evidence that the crew of the NX-01 didn't gather intel about the Ferengi. I'm pretty sure they did since Archer said, " I'm going to be contacting the Vulcan High Command as well as Starfleet. If you come within a light year of any one of our ships you won't know what hit you. ". So there is a "Be On the Look Out" alert on these guys. So Archer turned over what ever intel he gathered to the Vulcan High Command and Earth's Starfleet. My guess is the intel either got lost or was encrypted in a way they coudn't break. In any event the Ferengi seem to have stayed away from near Earth/Vulcan space or kept a low profile when entering it until the 24th Century.
__________________
Nerys Myk
Geoff Peterson is offline  
Old May 13 2014, 02:33 AM   #28
Nebusj
Rear Admiral
 
Nebusj's Avatar
 
View Nebusj's Twitter Profile
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Christopher wrote: View Post
Like I said -- humans speak many languages and have many different names for our species, so why do we always assume that any alien species would only have one language and one name for itself? There's no reason to assume that ship's builders and crew spoke the same language as the dominant Ferengi culture from 200 years later.
That is a credible retcon, and would answer the primary consequence of my complaint quite well, and I salute you for it.

However … the Ferengi are named in ``Dear Doctor'', and none of Archer's team asks about them, even though the Velakians have no obvious reason to not share information about their other contacts with the Enterprise crew. What in-character reasons can Archer have to be so incurious about new alien species (that he has reason to believe are) in the area when he's on a mission of finding new alien species in the area?

(I grant that in the real world it would be unlikely for there to be no overlapping of species/polity names; my birth state had until recently six unrelated municipalities named Dover. But Trek has avoided that, probably to minimize confusion of the audience, with the prominent exceptions of all those aliens named T*ll*ians, and the names of Arex's species and those sexy, sexy aliens who have sex and want to kill Wesley from the first season of Next Generation. I'd like to see evidence that the Ferengi of ``Dear Doctor'' were meant by the production staff to be a whimsical coincidence before believing they are.)


Except that Enterprise spent most of season 2 well beyond "the edge of human space." Their goal was to travel as far outward as they could get, and they were months beyond familiar ports for most of that season; remember how long it took them to get home after the Xindi attack, even at maximum warp.
They spend season two in places that a new earth ship can reach in under a year of travel time. They spend the season in places that older, slower ships are still able to reach. This is nearby.
Nebusj is online now  
Old May 13 2014, 03:19 AM   #29
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

Nebusj wrote: View Post
However … the Ferengi are named in ``Dear Doctor'', and none of Archer's team asks about them, even though the Velakians have no obvious reason to not share information about their other contacts with the Enterprise crew. What in-character reasons can Archer have to be so incurious about new alien species (that he has reason to believe are) in the area when he's on a mission of finding new alien species in the area?
It's a big galaxy, bigger than anything the human mind can easily comprehend. "The area" could contain hundreds of different cultures. It would take a long time to sort through them all.

And again, NX-01 wasn't confining itself to a single area. In theory, it was going straight outward, although we saw a number of episodes where it circled back to closer territories like Paan Mokar/Weytahn. But it was pretty much wandering all over rather than sticking to one sector. Any information it came upon like "There's a species called Ferengi" might've been left for future starships to follow up on. But the galaxy is so big that it would take centuries to follow up on every lead.

I mean, let's run some numbers. There's an estimated 15,000 stars within 100 light years of Earth. Even if Earth starships could collectively visit one of them per week, it would still take nearly three centuries just to visit all of them once. Establishing diplomatic contact with every civilization within that volume could take a comparable amount of time; only a certain percentage of stars would have civilizations, but it would take a lot longer than a week to establish a relationship.

And again, the Ferengi don't seem to be our next-door neighbors. They're out by Cardassia and Bajor, worlds the Federation didn't contact until the late 23rd century. So it stands to reason that the Ferengi ship that encountered the Valakians, like the one that encountered Enterprise, was traveling far from its home territory.


They spend season two in places that a new earth ship can reach in under a year of travel time. They spend the season in places that older, slower ships are still able to reach. This is nearby.
Space. Is. Big. Even as "nearby" as 100 light-years would take centuries to really explore exhaustively.

The problem is that we've grown up in a world where every place has already been explored and we can reach anywhere in the world in a matter of hours. We've forgotten how many centuries it took to fill in the map, and how piecemeal that process was.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline  
Old May 13 2014, 06:31 PM   #30
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Why Enterprise did not carry the Star Trek name

^By my calulation that would give a volume in terms of light years of something arond 4.2x10^6 a lot of space to explore
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:53 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.